Why do people get so upset about pricing?

Philly_Q

Zoolooter said:

The guitar world ain’t a patch on the audiophile crazies. £72,000 for a power amp, anyone tempted…https://dougbradyhifi.com/products/gryphon-audio-antileon-evo-mono-power-amplifier-pair?variant=42825814606036&currency=GBP&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&utm_campaign=gs-2021-01-08&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI576fw4zJhAMVRpJoCR1knQX7EAQYByABEgKgyfD_BwE

It doesn't even look like a hi-fi component, it looks like something taken out of an HGV engine.  I can't imagine where you'd put it (which reminds me of my dad's standard reply to the question "Where should I put this?".... "Don't tempt me...")

notsopro

digitalscream said:

notsopro said:

What I don’t get is when people say how great Harley Benton’s and the cheaper end of the market are.. the points about inflation, wages, economics, profit margins are not mentioned. It’s almost like they don’t care about the Chinese economy and the cost of living over there, as long as they get a good quality product, no thoughts about how it was that cheap.

Because inflation and the cost of living in the west (even before the recent crisis) means that prices for western-produced goods will naturally grow to exceed the price almost any westerner is willing (or able) to pay.

How many people do you think would take up playing guitar if they had to shell out £2.5k+ for a basic amp and guitar setup?

Maybe I'm missing something? but not sure that addresses the point I'm making. I wouldn't go as far as to say 'any westerner' is willing to pay, and yes if people had to shell out over £2,500 for a setup to get started, obviously there would be massively reduced numbers, can't disagree, but again not sure that relates to the point i made. 

I was getting at the fact that we complain about western made products being 'too expensive' or 'out of reach' for the average person, and I personally don't see the thoughts or concerns about people be it in China, Vietnam, Indonesia etc, where they may have the same affordability issues with the instruments they're making. Forgive me, I've not done the maths, but I imagine a top end Harley Benton / Squire etc made in the far east would be as 'unrealistically priced' to low earning locals as a high end fender, gibson, PRS would be to a low earning American?

Sporky

Interesting that they boast about having a "670,000 µF power capacitor bank".

Capacitors are noisy. More capacitors are more noisy.

bertie

Philly_Q said:

Svartmetall said:

OilCityPickups said:

elstoof said:

When a car dealer buys a car at x and sells at y, they generally add value by servicing, offering a warranty etc. so a higher price is often worth it.

A bedroom flipper adds fuck all, just takes something off the market and increases the price the very next day. Often before they’ve even received it themselves 

But it's their own property ... they can do what they like with it. Sell it for exactly what they want to. 

I think the point is that they only bought it with the express intention of gouging another musician for it. 

They bought it with the express intention of selling it, at a profit, to someone who willingly buys it.  How is that "gouging another musician"?  There's no victim here.  

precisely, person buys guitar (s)  person sells guitar (s) for profit  -  whoopie shit,  that's business, bedroom or showroom.

 I don't get this "princess precious" attitude that people shouldn't make money out of buying and selling guitars - don't like their prices or product, go buy from someone else.  They're not the only people selling guitars

digitalscream

notsopro said:

digitalscream said:

notsopro said:

What I don’t get is when people say how great Harley Benton’s and the cheaper end of the market are.. the points about inflation, wages, economics, profit margins are not mentioned. It’s almost like they don’t care about the Chinese economy and the cost of living over there, as long as they get a good quality product, no thoughts about how it was that cheap.

Because inflation and the cost of living in the west (even before the recent crisis) means that prices for western-produced goods will naturally grow to exceed the price almost any westerner is willing (or able) to pay.

How many people do you think would take up playing guitar if they had to shell out £2.5k+ for a basic amp and guitar setup?

Maybe I'm missing something? but not sure that addresses the point I'm making. I wouldn't go as far as to say 'any westerner' is willing to pay, and yes if people had to shell out over £2,500 for a setup to get started, obviously there would be massively reduced numbers, can't disagree, but again not sure that relates to the point i made. 

I was getting at the fact that we complain about western made products being 'too expensive' or 'out of reach' for the average person, and I personally don't see the thoughts or concerns about people be it in China, Vietnam, Indonesia etc, where they may have the same affordability issues with the instruments they're making. Forgive me, I've not done the maths, but I imagine a top end Harley Benton / Squire etc made in the far east would be as 'unrealistically priced' to low earning locals as a high end fender, gibson, PRS would be to a low earning American?

It did answer the question. It's because western-made products are out of reach that, out of necessity, people buy cheaper goods made elsewhere - and because of the necessity, they're justified in not thinking about it further.

Of course, any guilt they may feel probably won't account for the fact that the economic and social situation is very different over there. With that said...it's reasonably likely that the same item would be reasonably affordable to the people living in the country of origin, because it would be a hell of a lot cheaper there; the cost of manufacture is a tiny part of the western retail price. I remember Jaden telling me that he was regularly approached by reps of eastern guitar factories offering to make cheaper versions of his guitars at £30-40 each.

FelineGuitars

On the subject of starter packs - there are still options for under £200

However a well heeled beginner could get a decent starter pack - maybe a nice Squier like a classic vibe and a nice-ish amp like a Boss Katana 50w for £600.

Yes that is more than some would pay but it is a very respectable set-up and you could play for years without the need to change anything.

TTony

notsopro said:

 Forgive me, I've not done the maths, but I imagine a top end Harley Benton / Squire etc made in the far east would be as 'unrealistically priced' to low earning locals as a high end fender, gibson, PRS would be to a low earning American?

Quite possibly so (and there are some heroic assumptions/implications in your proposition), but to your main point;

If the Chinese factories hadn't been built to sate Western demand for cheap stuff,  then the alternate US-made Fender, Gibson and PRS would be even further out of reach for the low-earning locals.

Additionally, the HBs coming off the Chinese production lines will be significantly cheaper in the local markets than in the West, particularly the "after hours special" models

And the heroic assumptions/implications - there's a lot of disposable income in China nowadays, they're not all peasants toiling in the paddy fields any longer   

notsopro

digitalscream said:

notsopro said:

digitalscream said:

notsopro said:

What I don’t get is when people say how great Harley Benton’s and the cheaper end of the market are.. the points about inflation, wages, economics, profit margins are not mentioned. It’s almost like they don’t care about the Chinese economy and the cost of living over there, as long as they get a good quality product, no thoughts about how it was that cheap.

Because inflation and the cost of living in the west (even before the recent crisis) means that prices for western-produced goods will naturally grow to exceed the price almost any westerner is willing (or able) to pay.

How many people do you think would take up playing guitar if they had to shell out £2.5k+ for a basic amp and guitar setup?

Maybe I'm missing something? but not sure that addresses the point I'm making. I wouldn't go as far as to say 'any westerner' is willing to pay, and yes if people had to shell out over £2,500 for a setup to get started, obviously there would be massively reduced numbers, can't disagree, but again not sure that relates to the point i made. 

I was getting at the fact that we complain about western made products being 'too expensive' or 'out of reach' for the average person, and I personally don't see the thoughts or concerns about people be it in China, Vietnam, Indonesia etc, where they may have the same affordability issues with the instruments they're making. Forgive me, I've not done the maths, but I imagine a top end Harley Benton / Squire etc made in the far east would be as 'unrealistically priced' to low earning locals as a high end fender, gibson, PRS would be to a low earning American?

It did answer the question. It's because western-made products are out of reach that, out of necessity, people buy cheaper goods made elsewhere - and because of the necessity, they're justified in not thinking about it further.

Of course, any guilt they may feel probably won't account for the fact that the economic and social situation is very different over there. With that said...it's reasonably likely that the same item would be reasonably affordable to the people living in the country of origin, because it would be a hell of a lot cheaper there; the cost of manufacture is a tiny part of the western retail price. I remember Jaden telling me that he was regularly approached by reps of eastern guitar factories offering to make cheaper versions of his guitars at £30-40 each.

Perhaps to you it did, I re-worded in the 2nd part of the post that you quoted, and you did make some valid points on the second point, but to be clear, the reason it didn't address the point was I was never questioning why people buy the guitars or why they don't think about it further. I was more getting at that it is all just a scale of affordability isn't it, like to the western world something very affordable, could be considered a 'rip off' somewhere that the economy is not as strong, and that I think it's a little harsh to pile in on western companies weather it's a musical instruments or clothing, for pricing when for example clothes made for primark could be made in india, where £6 for a t-shirt could be pushing a weeks wage. I don't feel we should worry too much, or dictate to these economies how they should run, I just think it's something that should be kept in mind when taking shots at pricing. 

Completely agree with everything int he second part, and that's just it isn't it, the fact it can be made cheaply means that they will perhaps have access to equal quality instruments for a fraction of the cost, but if they want one with squire or Harley Benton on the headstock, will they run into the same issue as us, that they have to pay a premium. 

kentuckyklira

elstoof said:

When a car dealer buys a car at x and sells at y, they generally add value by servicing, offering a warranty etc. so a higher price is often worth it.

A bedroom flipper adds fuck all, just takes something off the market and increases the price the very next day. Often before they’ve even received it themselves 

Who´s forcing anybody to buy anything off of them? And if nobody does they´ll be out of cash and/or have to sell for less than anticipated.

Of course, a lot of peole on this planet have more money than they can spend sensibly, but that problem applies to all nice things that cost money.

guitarjack66

Guitar prices are only expensive if you pay them. They are not necessities such as food and drink or energy bills. They are luxury items and the prices are fuelled by the name (and it's advertising budget) on the headstock rather than the quality of the instrument,in a lot of cases at least. Like everything else,if you want it to change then vote with your pockets. 
Or buy a Harley Benton and make a few relatively cheap changes and you've got a Gibson!

Strat54

Jordan Guitars still on a one man mission buying up all the cheap ebay Fender Custom Shop guitars lol. Saw a black 2003 1956 relic Strat sell for £2100 last week....bingo...,up at £2695 today on his Insta. Amazing he has 250 guitars.....all in a bedroom.....? Lol. To be fair his markups aren't that large compared to most.

Bennyboy-UK

/\ and present and up to date on Companies House too with about £250k of assets, read stock.

mark123

Haven't read all the posts so sorry if said earlier but my pisser is if lets say a Baja tele comes on for £370 on here and someone who has always wanted to try one misses out and it's flipped on e- bay or Facebook with a £200  profit ..in a ideal world the Baja could be bought and if the player didn't get on with it put back into the fold for the same price but on here those days are long gone...

bgmartinsbridge

Imagine going in to a pub and the barman saying sorry no beer left mate, that bloke in the corner bought it all two mins after we opened up and you've got to buy it from him if you want a beer. 
He comes in every night and buys it just as we put it for sale. 

But it's OK, you don't have to buy it. 
Oh and he's in every pub, doing the same, so if you don't want it from him you don't get any at all. 

In theory, that's what's happened to used guitar sales in the UK. 

goldtop

bgmartinsbridge said:

Imagine going in to a pub and the barman saying sorry no beer left mate, that bloke in the corner bought it all two mins after we opened up and you've got to buy it from him if you want a beer. 
He comes in every night and buys it just as we put it for sale. 

But it's OK, you don't have to buy it. 
Oh and he's in every pub, doing the same, so if you don't want it from him you don't get any at all. 

In theory, that's what's happened to used guitar sales in the UK. 

Except there are literally thousands of guitars out there that you can buy from other people. If you want to buy in the rarified part of the market, then you've got to put on your big-boy pants and play that game. Or you can choose from so many great and reasonably priced guitars that are dangling from a hanger and waiting for an owner.

Playable guitars have never been cheaper. 

Collectible guitars have never been more expensive.

Choose accordingly.

bgmartinsbridge

@goldtop - agree, you're right. It's a specific area of the market they've cornered.

So let me change my example. 

You walk in to a pub and the barman says, we've got Stella, Worthingtons and the home brew but if you want anything premium that guy in the corner buys it all every day and increases the prices :-) 

paulmapp8306

TeleMaster said:

Tall_martin said:

Why do some folk on here get so upset about pricing?

 but this ignores the wider issue, that normal people are being priced out of EVERYTHING because of greed and opportunist behaviour that only serves the individual. It's not an insignificant issue. 

thats not "an issue" - thats "life".

It is what it is.  We cant all get what we want.

paulmapp8306

sweepy said:

It doesn’t help when ppl expect  top line  when it’s most definitely a buyers market 

but surly things then just wont sett.   As a seller you can ASK whatever you like.  As a buyer you only have to PAY what your willing to.  When the two align you get a sale - if they dont align the item doesn't sell. 

I have no problem, and I dont see any issue - large or small really.

bgmartinsbridge

A private seller generally wants a quicker sale than a dealer.

Hence lower prices from private sellers. 

Dealers buy the cheap stock from private sellers and put them behind their mum's sofa for a year and don't care if they sell them or not. And unlike car sales don't suffer depreciation, so they're actually happy that the value will increase. 

It's basic economics and the way of the world. 
Its not wrong (illegal/ immoral), it has just changed because technology has made it easy for small dealers to hoover up and corner a certain segment of the market that makes them the most money and inflate prices by doing so. 

robgilmo

I don't see an issue with it, I  bought a gibbo LP standard at a garage sale last week for 150 quid, I should easily get 500 for it on ebay.