I'm so angry right now... People should NOT be bullied because of what they wear...

imalone

Drew_fx said:

imalone said:

Drew_fx said:

As has been said elsewhere, if you're going to let a picture on a t-shirt stop you from going into STEM fields, then you don't belong there. Period. Man or woman.

Um, what?

STEM fields require logical and reasonable people. Not sissy's. End of story.

"What drivel. Utter drivel."

vasselmeyer

Whether or not you felt the shirt was in poor taste (and I did actually...there was no need for it) his poor decision-making over his appearance detracted from one of the most important ever space projects. The project has the power to inspire potential male and female scientists into a massively important field and his lack of judgement and that of the people around him have allowed the ESAs achievement to be diminished in the media.

Whether or not you agree with that is irrelevant because the shirt story is out there and being talked about. When you're in a public position you HAVE to think about how you'll appear to the rest of the world. He and his PR team didn't do that and they have reaped the consequences.

Foolishness on his part and that of the PR team who didn't offer him the appropriate advice.

Drew_TNBD

Sorry, but I completely disagree. He was wearing clothing entirely appropriate to his personality and his field - those science guys are fucking WEIRD!

As for inspiring females... if the SJW's and media wanted that, they would've instead focused on Kathrin Altwegg. The following is cribbed from Reddit:

You know what I find the most damning about this?

I spent three hours trying to find an interview or even an esposé on Kathrin Altwegg, one of the lead scientists on this mission* hoping to see something on the subject matter important to the research undergone), anything, even a modicum of a writeup about the women involved in the Rosetta Mission. Instead all I found was this tripe.

Who's scaring women off from tech? Is it men in questionable t-shirts, or is it the media and press who instead of giving a platform to the women who deserve to have their achievements and accomplishments praised in the highest order continue telling other women they wont make it in STEM fields because of button down bowling shirts?

This was a monumental opportunity for an intrepid blogger to sit down, reach out to the ESA and say "Hey, we'd like to interview some of the women on this mission because we feel like they've set a great platform for young girls to get involved in science in technology. These women participated in a scientific achievement that decades from now, others like them can look back and trace the roots of future scientific progress to the work these women did".

Instead..."THAT SHIRT IS SEXIST".

As a guy who helped his younger sister raise a young daughter when the dad walked out on them both, that's 10000x more depressing than what Matt Taylor decided to wear. They had a CHANCE to say "You can be a woman in tech too!", and they fucked it up. My niece is about to get into computer animation and I'm terrified that she'll never get any credit she deserves because it's easier to spin a narrative of "BUT MEN" than its to say "Man that Garzo chick made one awesome animated short!"

*Altewegg also has 23 publications to her name relevant to the Rosetta missions, in case you were curious. Why isn't anyone talking about these achievements? Why is it all about what Matt Taylor wore? Why isn't there a single blogger giving these women the credit they deserve?

We now know what a comet SMELLS like thanks to this woman... (http://www.newscientist.com/.../dn26447-comet-stinks-of...)

She's written a fucking BOOK on the birth of comets.

How does Kathrin Altwegg have 23 publications and two books to her name if sexist shirts keep women from entering tech????? Because it's easier to say men are keeping women out of tech than it is to give praise to the women already in tech. That's how. I'm sorry Kathrin. I'm sorry that instead of people looking to you and saying "You are a credit to the scientific community" they're effectively saying "You don't count because shirt". Because I'm a space nerd, I'm a male, and your shit is AWESOME.

That's me done. Continue to explore your little echo chamber ladies.

robinbowes

So, men *are* the right people to determine if something is offensive to women?

And the comments I quoted *don't* demonstrate misogyny?

Are you for real?

R.

littlegreenman

This group of scientists probably don't have a PR "team"?

They are scientists, who do science stuff and go to work wearing any old crap.

PR isn't on the agenda, achievements are.

Boo-hoo...

Drew_TNBD

robinbowes said:

So, men *are* the right people to determine if something is offensive to women?

Sometimes. Yes. You see... I don't classify people based on their gender like you're doing. To me, men and women can equally determine for men or women whether something is offensive to men or women. That's just how I roll.

I also don't automatically assume that experiences by men can only be judged, quantified, and criticised by men... and the same for women.

Because I'm not a sexist. Or a gender warrior. Or a white knight.

And the comments I quoted *don't* demonstrate misogyny?

Are you for real?

R.

Only if you have the most anally retentive sense of humour, which it seems you might??

robinbowes

Drew_fx said:

those science guys...

Bing! Surely you mean science "PEOPLE" because, after all, whether or not they have dicks is irrelevant?

The way to get *all* people involved in tech is to not exclude 50% of the population through casual sexism and non-inclusive terminology.

R.

Drew_TNBD

robinbowes said:

Drew_fx said:

those science guys...

Bing! Surely you mean science "PEOPLE" because, after all, whether or not they have dicks is irrelevant?

The way to get *all* people involved in tech is to not exclude 50% of the population through casual sexism and non-inclusive terminology.

51% of the population, actually.

Still.... nice to see you get hung up on a colloquialism. Because that's what is important in life. Bully people into feeling shame and crying, sure.... but someone uses the word guy... ya gotta POUNCE!

It might surprise you to know that I call all my female friends "guy" and I call my wife "mate" and "dude" sometimes as well.

I know. What a massive fucking sexist I am.

Phil_aka_Pip

Will all the people who put so much emphasis on what people wear just FUCK OFF AND DIE so that those of us who care about what they DO can take the decisions about what's important?

holnrew

The people who wear vests are the worst... 

digitalscream

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Will all the people who put so much emphasis on what people wear just FUCK OFF AND DIE so that those of us who care about what they DO can take the decisions about what's important?

No, they won't. Why? Because it's a bit difficult to make an argument about sexism when you're objectively covering a story about successfully throwing a fridge-sized lump of metal and electronics at a comet 10 years away by a team made of both men and women without concentrating on what somebody's wearing.

Feminism apparently feels a need to justify itself these days, and that means jumping on any story it can (preferably a high-profile one). The outrage over Spiderwoman's pose on the front cover of a comic petered out when people realised it was the same pose as her male counterpart held on many comic covers, so they had to think of something else.

Funnily enough, a scan of the major sites which seem to cover all of the "hey, let's make fun of what somebody's wearing" bases yet cover no stories of actual importance to the human race (eg Daily Mail) seems to suggest that most of the people writing such stories are women. The targets are also overwhelmingly female. I reckon if the feminist movement really wants to get down to it and make some genuine improvements in how women feel about themselves, it should probably look a little closer at the gender it purports to protect.

robinbowes

Drew_fx said:

51% of the population, actually.

Still.... nice to see you get hung up on a colloquialism. Because that's what is important in life. Bully people into feeling shame and crying, sure.... but someone uses the word guy... ya gotta POUNCE!

It might surprise you to know that I call all my female friends "guy" and I call my wife "mate" and "dude" sometimes as well.

I know. What a massive fucking sexist I am.

If we're being pedantic (which you are, since 50% is an approximation), the current male/female sex ratio in the world population is actually around 48.3% women and 51.7% men.

I'm not playing games, and "pouncing" on (what you perceive to be) an unimportant colloquialism; I'm calling you out, because I think you're wrong, and I'm trying to explain why you're wrong. And I'm trying to do that in a reasonable, inoffensive way.

I travel to conferences and discuss these issues with others (males and females). I listen to others (ie. females) who tell me that they don't feel included when the word "guys" is used. I empathise. At the last conference I attended, there was consensus - I didn't hear a single dissenting voice. Indeed, a couple of (male) speakers used inappropriate imagery/language and actually came back to the podium and apologised, for which they were applauded, warmly.

You seem to be surprised that other people have different opinions than you - don't be, it's quite normal. And when they try explain why they have a different opinion, they're not trying to bully you into feeling shame or make you cry.

Peace,

R.

Drew_TNBD

robinbowes said:

Drew_fx said:

51% of the population, actually.

Still.... nice to see you get hung up on a colloquialism. Because that's what is important in life. Bully people into feeling shame and crying, sure.... but someone uses the word guy... ya gotta POUNCE!

It might surprise you to know that I call all my female friends "guy" and I call my wife "mate" and "dude" sometimes as well.

I know. What a massive fucking sexist I am.

If we're being pedantic (which you are, since 50% is an approximation), the current male/female sex ratio in the world population is actually around 48.3% women and 51.7% men.

I'm not playing games, and "pouncing" on (what you perceive to be) an unimportant colloquialism; I'm calling you out, because I think you're wrong, and I'm trying to explain why you're wrong. And I'm trying to do that in a reasonable, inoffensive way.

I travel to conferences and discuss these issues with others (males and females). I listen to others (ie. females) who tell me that they don't feel included when the word "guys" is used. I empathise. At the last conference I attended, there was consensus - I didn't hear a single dissenting voice. Indeed, a couple of (male) speakers used inappropriate imagery/language and actually came back to the podium and apologised, for which they were applauded, warmly.

You seem to be surprised that other people have different opinions than you - don't be, it's quite normal. And when they try explain why they have a different opinion, they're not trying to bully you into feeling shame or make you cry.

Peace,

R.

You think you're doing all that. But what you're actually doing is acting holier than thou.

I've done my years of empathizing, being walked over and told that I'm a CIS scumbag shitlord. I'm done. There is no desire on my part to want to listen, I don't give a fuck. I don't care that you think I'm wrong. Because it feels right, and that's what matters to me.

I want to spend the rest of my life celebrating the people I love, and the people I get along with. I want to ignore as much as possible the imbecilic fuckwits that I don't and will never agree with.

I also don't care to be inoffensive or reasonable.

robinbowes

Drew_fx said:

I also don't care to be inoffensive or reasonable.

Ah, common ground, at last.

R.

randomhandclaps

Could you imagine if it were a woman in Dr Matt Taylors' current position?  If not that makes you a big arse misogynist because woman can be doctors too.

Lixarto

robinbowes said:

So, men *are* the right people to determine if something is offensive to women?

And the comments I quoted *don't* demonstrate misogyny?

Are you for real?

R.

(I've seen the shirt now. He really thought that was appropriate? What an idiot.

And yes, suits *do* make one appear more professional.)

stickyfiddle

The shirt is ludicrous and he looks like an arse. 

Fuzzdog

The part I find amusing that most people seem to push conveniently to the side is that the shirt was actually a gift - from a female friend.  She didn't even buy it, she made it herself for his birthday.  He didn't walk into a shop, see that shirt, and think "Hurrr, dat's got purty wimmins on it!" - it was given to him as a handmade gift by a person of the very same gender as those who apparently should be horrifically offended by it. 

Before this stupid mess, I had at least two people I know (one was *gasp* a woman!) comment on seeing him in his funky shirt with his tattoos, and how it was the hook they needed to watch further coverage of the Rosetta mission, even though science isn't really their thing, and they ended up becoming quite interested in what was going on.  

Just the fact that he looked like a fun and interesting everyday chap got them interested in science, if only for a few days.  They could relate to him far more than someone in a stuffy suit. There are probably kids out there who saw him who now want to grow up and hurl metallic objects at remote celestial objects, purely because they saw the funny man in a silly shirt on the internet and it got them interested. 

Or maybe they'll now grow up paranoid about offending people with their clothes instead.

Personally, I thought the shirt was bloody hideous and I have a bit of a dislike for tattoos - but you know what my first thought was when I saw him?  "He's going to get a lot more people into science.  Well played, ESA."

Gassage

It just goes to show the difference between the Fretboard and TGP.

We're debating the shirt, they're debating whether the shirt would look better with semi automatics on it.

hungrymark

Evilmags;412862" said:

Where can one buy such a t shirt?

Haha, brilliant