I'm so angry right now... People should NOT be bullied because of what they wear...

hungrymark

My wife thinks it's a non - issue. Moreover she told me the other day that she'd 'shag him', to which I obviously screamed blue murder at this crass and offensive objectification of men. 'He's part of a team that landed a spaceship on a comet and all you can think about is shagging him!' I cried. 'Yes, that's why I'd shag him' she replied. Fair dos.

ThePrettyDamned

I asked a couple of female friends who are scientists what the thought of the whole thing. This was one response, word for word:

"I'd still do him".

In the serious bit, they both said they didn't care and that no man in a bad shirt would stop them doing what they love (one is in genetics, the other is in organic synthesis challenges).

The geneticist said she finds the notion that a shirt would stop a girl having interest in science was, in actual fact, offensive to women, and that this sort of media probably encourages a sort of misogynistic backlash because of how ridiculous it is.

Both agreed it was a shit shirt, but they didn't find it offensive.

"except to fashion".

So there are two women's thoughts, both of whom are accomplished scientists. Both were better than me at university, more motivated than me and have been far more successful than me, and me being a man and them women has nothing to do with any of that.

hungrymark

Lixarto;413060" said:

robinbowes said:

So, men *are* the right people to determine if something is offensive to women?

And the comments I quoted *don't* demonstrate misogyny?

Are you for real?

R.









(I've seen the shirt now. He really thought that was appropriate? What an idiot.

Oh spare me

Bogwhoppit

I bet under that shirt he was wearing a bra.

Fuzzdog

ThePrettyDamned said:

The geneticist said she finds the notion that a shirt would stop a girl having interest in science was, in actual fact, offensive to women, and that this sort of media probably encourages a sort of misogynistic backlash because of how ridiculous it is.

Exactly the sort of response I've heard from actual real life women (as opposed to angst ridden teenage internet people) about the current 'feminism and social justice' epidemic.  The people who are getting hurt by it are the exact same people they claim to be fighting for.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I was growing up, 'equal rights' meant acknowledging that everyone is different, but everyone deserves an equal chance in life regardless of how their views may differ from your own, regardless of colour, sex or religion.  Now it seems to be all about people being offended by things like tacky shirts.  Not quite sure how that happened.

Phil_aka_Pip

Lixarto said:

And yes, suits *do* make one appear more like a twat

fixed that for you

Emp_Fab

How on Earth can this thread be remotely valid ?  We have a forum that is 100% male discussing female opinions on a subject !  That's like a forum of Israelis discussing whether or not Palestinians are unreasonable or not to hold a certain opinion !

Without at least a few female voices here, this is just a load of cocks waving in the wind.

Drew_TNBD

Emp_Fab said:

How on Earth can this thread be remotely valid ?  We have a forum that is 100% male discussing female opinions on a subject !  That's like a forum of Israelis discussing whether or not Palestinians are unreasonable or not to hold a certain opinion !

Without at least a few female voices here, this is just a load of cocks waving in the wind.

Emp, I've already pointed this out once... but asserting that because we're men that our opinion on this subject is invalid is... wait for it...

FUCKING SEXIST!!

http://i.imgur.com/gBZh9Rk.png

Emp_Fab

I never said our opinions were invalid, I said the thread was.  Our opinion, as men, is as equally important as that of women.  My point was that we do not have a balanced debate here without any representatives of the other 50% of people on the planet.

It's no different from having a debate about racism in a room full of white people or a discussion on immigration at a UKIP conference, or, a government made up entirely of women discussing men's rights.  Yes, their opinions would still be valid, but from a viewpoint of arriving at a consensus, it's pointless.

FWIW, I don't find his shirt offensive.  I think there are far greater barriers to women entering technical careers (if they want to) than the pattern on a fucking shirt.  Still....  some people just like getting angry over trivia rather than make any real effort to tackle inequality.  It's easier to rant online than to actually do anything.

digitalscream

Emp_Fab said:

I never said our opinions were invalid, I said the thread was.  Our opinion, as men, is as equally important as that of women.  My point was that we do not have a balanced debate here without any representatives of the other 50% of people on the planet.

It doesn't have to be balanced to be valid - the fact that, yet again, feminists are up in arms focusing on one tiny irrelevant issue rather than considering the actual achievements of a team (which included 8 women who've actually achieved something of note rather than sitting around looking for something to complain about) affects everybody. The worst part is that they're trying to take over the story and make it about them and their opinions.

It's a discussion, not a policy debate or a positive action committee. I'm pretty sure that when you're chatting to your mates, you don't consider every interaction invalid or a complete failure if it doesn't result in a consensus.

In point of fact, though, several of us have canvassed opinion from actual real-life women with ovaries and everything, and all of them (my wife, daughter and several of my friends included - all of whom thought the dude in question is awesome and if this argument hadn't erupted it would probably have encouraged a lot of kids to think about science) are in agreement with most of us that this whole episode is an absolute load of tosh. Sure, it's just anecdotal, but it does kind of indicate a rough consensus amongst both genders.

Bidley

ThePrettyDamned said:

The geneticist said she finds the notion that a shirt would stop a girl having interest in science was, in actual fact, offensive to women, and that this sort of media probably encourages a sort of misogynistic backlash because of how ridiculous it is.

Exactly. This sort of thing only increases the perceived divide between genders. I'll say now, I don't agree that misogynistic comments as a backlash to this is in any way justified (the fact I feel the need to say that speaks volumes).

As Drew's cribbed reddit comment says, if you want to raise awareness for equal opportunities, this is a prime opportunity to celebrate the women involved in projects like this. Instead people have to resort to pressing the big red "I'M OFFENDED" button, as if being offended gives people some kind of untouchable status. I've seen plenty of women (on Twitter, reddit etc) say they're embarrassed by this whole thing and feel it reflects badly on them, at least as many who say the opposite. The people who say that women need to be treated like a fragile snowflake don't speak for all women.

Emp, I agree with what you say, but without wanting to get into meta-discussion, Off-Topic rarely reaches a group consensus. I daresay we've all reached our own

guitarfishbay

Fuzzdog;413197" said:

ThePrettyDamned said:



The geneticist said she finds the notion that a shirt would stop a girl having interest in science was, in actual fact, offensive to women, and that this sort of media probably encourages a sort of misogynistic backlash because of how ridiculous it is.



Exactly the sort of response I've heard from actual real life women (as opposed to angst ridden teenage internet people) about the current 'feminism and social justice' epidemic.  The people who are getting hurt by it are the exact same people they claim to be fighting for.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I was growing up, 'equal rights' meant acknowledging that everyone is different, but everyone deserves an equal chance in life regardless of how their views may differ from your own, regardless of colour, sex or religion.  Now it seems to be all about people being offended by things like tacky shirts.  Not quite sure how that happened.

My G/F gets annoyed when the 'outrage' crowd are seen as the frontier of feminism because it undermines positive changes. Ultimately this is a negative and shaming method of trying to change attitudes, I don't think he wore the shirt for mysoginistic reasons, I think he wore it because it was a gift from a woman and he probably thought it was cool. It didn't offend me or her. I include me there because I find some stuff crass (not offensive, crass - e.g. My uni used to sell shirts that said 'I got shagg-ad last night' to promote the uni nightclub called sugahouse)

This thread is just full of point scoring. Would anyone here have started this thread without there already being an outrage on social media? Would seeing the shirt have made you have the emotional response as per some of the articles written shaming this guy?

I'm totally disappointed that the press chose pushing this story over pushing more of the stories of women involved in the project. Because I know which I think is more headline worthy. This is at worst a shit shirt that anyone with conservative notions of work wear aren't going to like.

As an anecdote- I had a lecturer at university who was pro Palestine but absolutely refused to associate with the vast majority of protests because they invariably involved using shock, outrage, or shame tactics which immediately marginalises non confrontational people from engaging in debate but also de-legitimises the point being made sometimes through causing harm themselves. That is pretty much how I see this kind of shame writing, well also that and it is click bait for advertising so probably easy money/fame/whatever these writers want.

Thing is there can be a debate about his shirt - that is fine. But for writers and articles to level that he is preventing women from working in STEM is both condescending to women and very hurtful to the guy (as evident in his emotional response in his apology). But shame writing isn't only about answers/apologies it is about causing damage. In a level conversation someone could just say 'hey, I don't think you should wear that shirt today', in a shame article it becomes a reactionary character assasination 'this person has undermined and damaged people (therefore is a bad person who the reader should join in in shaming)'.

I don't like this form of dialogue, regardless of the issue, is basically my point.

Also my gf just showed me a pair of 'asstodon' shorts she wants because someone at her belly dancing class has them. If anyone is confused the band Mastodon did a video recently that had girls in it... My g/f thought it was great that they used different sizes of women to dance in it.

Drew_TNBD

FWIW, I like the shirt. I like the colour palette and density of the artwork. But then again, I have no class at all 8-)

mike_l

Is there a difference between that shirt and a shirt with (for example) Wonder Woman on it?

I can't see a difference.......

robinbowes

Drew_fx said:

FWIW, I like the shirt. I like the colour palette and density of the artwork. But then again, I have no class at all 8-)

FWIW, I like the shirt too. But I wouldn't wear it to work.

R.

Drew_TNBD

robinbowes said:

Drew_fx said:

FWIW, I like the shirt. I like the colour palette and density of the artwork. But then again, I have no class at all 8-)

FWIW, I like the shirt too. But I wouldn't wear it to work.

R.

I would. But then I work at a tech company where we all slouch, tell bad jokes, drink booze most nights, and have fun with our jobs as much as we can.

jonnyburgo

I had a pin-up transfer on my Tele once, it was sexy.

Chuffola

Is this the right room for an argument?

randomhandclaps

jonnyburgo said:

I had a pin-up transfer on my Tele once, it was sexy.

I remember that.  Although a some found it a bit sexist I though it was cool.

http://i1284.photobucket.com/albums/a579/imadray/10410967_10152488491941699_13017009056448667_n_zpsb8117cf8.jpg

Drew_TNBD

SEXYIST!