Paris shootings

mellowsun

VimFuego said:

I took that to mean you were implying a false flag event

I wouldn't rule anything out, but you are right, I wasn't implying that. 

Emp_Fab

We'll never know the truth.  It could be muslim extremists, it could be neocons or right-wing christians trying to fan the flames of  islamophobia, it could even be Jason Bourne for all we know.

mellowsun

Drew_fx said:

What point are you actually trying to make here? Be direct. Stop being passive aggressive and snide. Make your point.

You said that I'd drawn a link without any evidence. A link to the Caliphate... you might have a point there. But a link to Islamic extremism "in general" (your words) ... there most definitely IS evidence.

I thought I was pretty direct in my original post, OK maybe not so much in the replies. The link to Islamic extremism seems to be correlation, but not causation.

But still, if terrorists of any persuasion are able to now obtain the weapons to use this level of violence, with this level of precision, without detection, then this is a very worrying thing indeed.

Question is which is more likely.

VimFuego

as I understand it, the weapons used were AK47's and RPG's. Now, here in NW Devon they're probably not that easy to get hold of, however the Middle East will be awash with them, as well as people who are trained and experienced in using them. The fact that these people are able to move around and operate throughout the ME and Europe is indeed worrying, but I don't find it sinister. We know organisations like ISIS etc. want to do the West harm, this is no secret.

fretmeister

Drew_fx said:

Emp_Fab said:

Drew_fx said:

Emp_Fab said:

Solidarité avec Charlie Hebdo

Couldn't disagree with that cartoon more. Religion and religious figures are no different to fairies and phantom paedophiles. They SHOULD be mocked in the media, in order to enlighten society and elevate us to a new level.

Absolutely.  Which is what I was doing.  The cartoon is taking the piss, not making a straight point.

Nah I think the cartoon is trying to hard to find some middle ground.

Not in the slightest. JesusandMo are well known for being highly sarcastic shit stirrers.

mellowsun

VimFuego said:

as I understand it, the weapons used were AK47's and RPG's. Now, here in NW Devon they're probably not that easy to get hold of, however the Middle East will be awash with them, as well as people who are trained and experienced in using them. The fact that these people are able to move around and operate throughout the ME and Europe is indeed worrying, but I don't find it sinister. We know organisations like ISIS etc. want to do the West harm, this is no secret.

The Middle East is awash with these weapons, but the ability to get these into mainland Europe, plan and carry out this attack without detection is a new development.

Just saying that this does not seem like a typical attack by extremists. No other terrorist group has carried out this execution-style attack this in Europe before AFAIK, it's different to flying a plane into a building or setting off a home-made bomb.  So my first thought was, is this something else?

Panama_Jack666

mellowsun said:

No other terrorist group has carried out this execution-style attack this in Europe before AFAIK, it's different to flying a plane into a building or setting off a home-made bomb.  So my first thought was, is this something else?

There was that whole Anders Brevik thing in 2011... Not a terrorist group as such, and also Norway are only continental europe and not actually a part of the EU. But it was a similar execution style attack for a political cause.

randomhandclaps

Disgusting but unfortunately not even in the slightest bit surprising. We are at such contrasting viewpoints with these people it's difficult to see how it will end.

Mohammed is the messenger.  In the western world we say "Don't shoot the messenger!".  In the middle east the messenger all to frequently says "Shoot the westerner!". 

VimFuego

mellowsun said:

VimFuego said:

as I understand it, the weapons used were AK47's and RPG's. Now, here in NW Devon they're probably not that easy to get hold of, however the Middle East will be awash with them, as well as people who are trained and experienced in using them. The fact that these people are able to move around and operate throughout the ME and Europe is indeed worrying, but I don't find it sinister. We know organisations like ISIS etc. want to do the West harm, this is no secret.

The Middle East is awash with these weapons, but the ability to get these into mainland Europe, plan and carry out this attack without detection is a new development.

Just saying that this does not seem like a typical attack by extremists. No other terrorist group has carried out this execution-style attack this in Europe before AFAIK, it's different to flying a plane into a building or setting off a home-made bomb.  So my first thought was, is this something else?

well, I don't know if it is something else (not even sure what you are hinting at here TBH) but it's certainly something new. Possibly they feel they will have more chance of evading capture prior to the attack if they avoid things like explosives. I would imagine the various security services have many of the sources of home made explosives well tagged (I don't actually know what you need to make a bomb, but it always seems to be fertiliser), plus is takes a fair amount of skill to assemble a home made bomb safely. Maybe it's easier to recruit and train a gunman than it is a suicide bomber. As I said, I don't know what you mean when you say when you say something else, can you clarify?

Drew_TNBD

mellowsun said:

 The link to Islamic extremism seems to be correlation, but not causation.

I don't agree with this assumption you're making. 

Forge

Emp_Fab said:

We'll never know the truth.  It could be muslim extremists, it could be neocons or right-wing christians trying to fan the flames of  islamophobia, it could even be Jason Bourne for all we know.

We'll never know the truth because in France you are a dead man walking if you kill a cop. Bring yourself back a few years and see how previous groups or violent armed robbers were executed by the Police. The warning shot will be in the head...

Snap

three gunmen, armed to the hilt, shouting god is great, in arabic, dressed in typical IS gear, assassinating employees of a satirical paper that has made moderate jokes related to Islam. Seems likely that it was done by islamic extremists to me, unless of course it's part of an elaborate and brutal smear campaign against those lovely reasonable people in IS.

FFS mellowsun, are you serious?

Forge

randomhandclaps said:

Disgusting but unfortunately not even in the slightest bit surprising. We are at such contrasting viewpoints with these people it's difficult to see how it will end.

Mohammed is the messenger.  In the western world we say "Don't shoot the messenger!".  In the middle east the messenger all to frequently says "Shoot the westerner!". 

The nature of the game they play is wicked. The more atrocities they commit the more hatred towards Muslims, that will in turn feed their ranks. I would like to see the Muslim community involvement more evident in the media, the impression we have is that they are sitting on the fence about the whole IS thing. Also I am tired to hear the IS motive is about Islam when it is clear the deluded old self promoted Caliph is clearly delusional and happy to step back to a time when murder and rape were the rewards of the dominant factions.

fretmeister

mellowsun

Snap said:

three gunmen, armed to the hilt, shouting god is great, in arabic, I'm just saying

'They shot on Wolinski, Cabu... it lasted 5 minutes... I had hidden under my desk... they spoke French perfectly... they said they we're al-Qaeda.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11329976/Paris-Charlie-Hebdo-attack-live.html

So potentially home-grown terrorists?

Panama_Jack666

Salman Rushdie The Booker Prize-winning writer has released the following statement: "Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms.

"This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.

"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.

"'Respect for religion' has become a code phrase meaning 'fear of religion.' Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."

equalsql

Sambostar

Well religion aside, ain't much else to do this time of year but shoot people.

mellowsun

So there is a suggestion that the assailants spoke perfect French, had access to military weapons and training, remained undetected and got away after the attack. 

It's worth thinking about whether there are any parallels with what went on during the Northern Ireland troubles.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/oct/25/northernireland-pat-finucane

I'm not suggesting this was a 'false flag', but just because the assailants say they are from Al Qaeda, is it that simple? Who else might benefit from the inevitable reprisals and other fallout following such an attack?

VimFuego

ah, so you are saying you think it was a false flag event then.