Paris shootings

Fretwired

joeyowen said:

joeyowen said:

If we lose that positive spirit, then they really have won.

I'm just going to quote myself...

I thought it was nice to see how busy this thread was until I read it.  If you want to discuss religion vs science... go to speakers corner and do it.  I don't think it's best to take a thread regarding the shootings, and use it to argue with each other and call each other twats.

You're being a little optimistic posting the above in the off topic section as that's exactly what's happened to this thread.

mellowsun

Looks like there is some dispute about whether at least one of those sought for this attack were actually there at all http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-shooting-suspect-twitter-mourad-hamyd

fretmeister

equalsql said:

 I always get confused as what 'we' as a society mean by 'God'.  I hear people who suggest that there is an 'intelligent design' being mocked as believers in God, when all they are suggesting is that perhaps some thing, some intelligence, vastly beyond our scope of understanding 'may' have had a hand in our existence.  

A good example of this being the character 'Q' in the Star Trek TV series.  'He' is a member of the Continuum, a race of aliens who have mastered control of time and matter at an omnipotent level that anyone would prescribe to a god, however he is plainly not so. 

As @fretmeister says, no one truly knows.

What you talking about Willis?

I am certainty content there is no evidence for a super being.

TinLip

What happens when they catch them? Barring a bloody shootout I'm guessing life in prison.

thomasross20

My girlfriend's there now.
Got her purse knicked up the Eiffel Tower she thinks - two credit cards and £380 down the pan.

Snap

Drew_fx said:

Snap said:

Drew_fx said:

Snap said:

Science and faith are not mutually exclusive, in fact they are very much a neat fit for many people. 

Scientific METHOD and faith *are* mutually exclusive.

Yeah, I think they are. Probably. Though...here's one for you:

Talking to a priest, again on the idea of history and he said to me, you believe in Julius Caesar right? But you've never seen evidence on him other than what has been written down yeah? Or take many examples from history that we accept as fact based on written evidence. His posit was that much of what we accept as true history has the same evidential quality as a lot of the New Testament - written down by many people, cross referenced and accepted as fact.

interesting point of view.

I think that is a bit of a red herring. We have murals, we have carvings, we have statues, we have biographies written by historians of his time, and we have evidence for those people existing also. We have Caesar's own writings, his books, memoirs, and his speeches - all available in the original Latin. We have his family tree. We have his chronological time line. We have many different cultures writings of their experiences with the Roman army and Caesar himself. We even have the altar that he was cremated upon.

The New Testament has none of that. I know, because I've read it. It's a series of parables, with real and fictional characters, that have been tweaked and changed over the years in order to conform to the morality of the day. 

They're not comparable.

I think his point was, actually there is a lot of what you cite above in terms similar evidence for what's happened in the New Testament.
 Taking the gospels for a start:

several separately written accounts, all pretty similar, of the same timeline of events
tons and tons of supporting letters to and fro across the early Christian network on what went on
Roman accounts of the insurrection in Jerusalem, and the events around Christ's arrest and execution (though In think from memory, some of it's very tenuous)

Corroborated evidence for social and cultural events that happened during Christ's life.

But all that, for me is irrelevant in terms of what the core tenets of Christianity are, and for these IMO there is little corroborated evidence outside of the early Christian sect's writers.

There was a teacher going round at the time, who was talking aobut building a kingdom above and beyond that of Rome and he had a following, etc. Fine. And I'm sure that the Christians could evidence that, and I wouldn't be too uptight about that. Big deal. The real deal maker is that he rose from the dead: without that, you've no Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, that bit is entirely spurious, and with little corroboration, just the wrtigins of a few people.

More to the point, the first gospel, Marks, was written about 30 years after the dath of christ. upto then the staory had been maintained by word of mouth and various bits and bobs. Its quite easy to see how key facts could be distorted over time, easily. FOr example, the tale of him walking on water, could easily have started out as "from where I saw him, it looked as if he was walking on water". Tell that tale across afeww people, it quickly could become "he walked across the water"

This sort of dedicated belief is what we are up against with extremism though - an absence of empirical reason.

Fretwired

Snap said:

Drew_fx said:

Snap said:

Drew_fx said:

Snap said:

Science and faith are not mutually exclusive, in fact they are very much a neat fit for many people. 

Scientific METHOD and faith *are* mutually exclusive.

Yeah, I think they are. Probably. Though...here's one for you:

Talking to a priest, again on the idea of history and he said to me, you believe in Julius Caesar right? But you've never seen evidence on him other than what has been written down yeah? Or take many examples from history that we accept as fact based on written evidence. His posit was that much of what we accept as true history has the same evidential quality as a lot of the New Testament - written down by many people, cross referenced and accepted as fact.

interesting point of view.

I think that is a bit of a red herring. We have murals, we have carvings, we have statues, we have biographies written by historians of his time, and we have evidence for those people existing also. We have Caesar's own writings, his books, memoirs, and his speeches - all available in the original Latin. We have his family tree. We have his chronological time line. We have many different cultures writings of their experiences with the Roman army and Caesar himself. We even have the altar that he was cremated upon.

The New Testament has none of that. I know, because I've read it. It's a series of parables, with real and fictional characters, that have been tweaked and changed over the years in order to conform to the morality of the day. 

They're not comparable.

I think his point was, actually there is a lot of what you cite above in terms similar evidence for what's happened in the New Testament.
 Taking the gospels for a start:

several separately written accounts, all pretty similar, of the same timeline of events
tons and tons of supporting letters to and fro across the early Christian network on what went on
Roman accounts of the insurrection in Jerusalem, and the events around Christ's arrest and execution (though In think from memory, some of it's very tenuous)

Corroborated evidence for social and cultural events that happened during Christ's life.

But all that, for me is irrelevant in terms of what the core tenets of Christianity are, and for these IMO there is little corroborated evidence outside of the early Christian sect's writers.

There was a teacher going round at the time, who was talking aobut building a kingdom above and beyond that of Rome and he had a following, etc. Fine. And I'm sure that the Christians could evidence that, and I wouldn't be too uptight about that. Big deal. The real deal maker is that he rose from the dead: without that, you've no Christianity. As far as I'm concerned, that bit is entirely spurious, and with little corroboration, just the wrtigins of a few people.

More to the point, the first gospel, Marks, was written about 30 years after the dath of christ. upto then the staory had been maintained by word of mouth and various bits and bobs. Its quite easy to see how key facts could be distorted over time, easily. FOr example, the tale of him walking on water, could easily have started out as "from where I saw him, it looked as if he was walking on water". Tell that tale across afeww people, it quickly could become "he walked across the water"

This sort of dedicated belief is what we are up against with extremism though - an absence of empirical reason.

The New Testament was heavily rewritten by the Vatican in the Middle Ages.

fretmeister

VimFuego

/\ /\ so, just means god is focussed. I'd much rather employ a deity who can focus on the task in hand rather than one who gets distracted by all the other things out there. He's clearly a detail person, not a big picture thinker. cut him some slack.

PolarityMan

joeyowen said:

joeyowen said:

If we lose that positive spirit, then they really have won.

I'm just going to quote myself...

I thought it was nice to see how busy this thread was until I read it.  If you want to discuss religion vs science... go to speakers corner and do it.  I don't think it's best to take a thread regarding the shootings, and use it to argue with each other and call each other twats.

It's ok to disagree, with people for sure, but let condolence threads/news threads stay on topic surely?

Telling people what they can and can't write in a thread is really not cool. So kindly fuck off.

joeyowen

PolarityMan said:

Telling people what they can and can't write in a thread is really not cool. So kindly fuck off.

blooodyy hell you guys are on edge

Just trying to positive here, it wasn't meant in a condescending manner.  I was just surprised at how much the thread had turned and figured this wasn't the place for it.  Obviously that means I can fuck off for a crywank...

VimFuego

you tell people not to post in a thread and you're shocked they got angry with you? Are you new to the internet by any chance? If so, you may wanna grow a bit of a skin real quick.

Sambostar

IanSavage said:

Axe_meister said:

Science is not a faith, it is a provable methodology that explains the world around us, it is happily proved wrong in light of new evidence. It has moved the human race forward whereas religion would have kept us in the dark ages.

There is as far as I can tell zero evidence that a god of any sort exists, yet lots of evidence for evolution/big bang, etc, etc.

The fact that science constantly questions itself and everything around it makes it totally the opposite of religion that sticks to the 

same old dogma.

I'm taking that as a pressure relief valve - the more of Sambo's ill-informed bollocks I read the more agitated I got and the more likely I became to reply with a torrent of abuse. Thankfully you've articulated everything I wanted to say in a far more reasoned and polite way.

What a twat.

Now now, having your intelligence offended and getting angry will get you no where.  These horrible men had anger in their hearts and look what they ended up doing.  Science is only a proven methodology within a context.

You can't tell me for certain if they mostly shop at Morrisons on a distance planet forty billion lights years away.  Tell me I am wrong.

randomhandclaps

Sambostar is clearly just demonstrating that human atrocities don't effect him in the same way they do most people.  In balance, unlike Sambo I find nothing emotionally jarring about this photo -

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/resources/images/2368163.jpg?type=articleLandscape

joeyowen

VimFuego said:

you tell people not to post in a thread and you're shocked they got angry with you? Are you new to the internet by any chance? If so, you may wanna grow a bit of a skin real quick.

heh, fair point.  To be clear, no offence intended, etc etc.  I'm not offended, just didn't want people to be offended

Reading back, the post sounds a tad sour, but nevermind eh, wasn't intended that way

I'm out of this thread anyway, nothing else to add on the subject that hasn't already been said

Sambostar

They do RHC, but not really to be honest, if I don't know who they are and don't particularly want to research the family they left behind because life is depressing enough.  I don't read their comic strips and at the end of the day it was three nutters and nothing much to do with religion or science or anything else.  These things will happen.  The benefits of a free world.  The worst type of thing about at the moment is nutters teaching and indoctrinating other nutters.  Nutters are everywhere, not only do they easily get mad and incensed with rage, but also hold a grudge and have a long memory. 

Now, there was no need to post that photo though.  That is bang out of order.  You are a sick man.  I am really, really mad right now...I'II remember that.

Look I do talk bollocks and do tend to be insensitive and moronic at times, but I do enjoy reading others people's thoughts, although I am a bit wary about people's mental health when people get enraged from reading a load of bollocks or try to assimilate others to their thinking, but as far as I am concerned my world, is just the little world around me, Paris, France could be Bagdad, Iraq to for all I know.  Like I said, I never read the comic's, I have no idea who they are, in fact, if I was to start worrying about the wider world around me and watch the news religiously, I would probably be more brainwashed into feeling for the freezing children of Syria, babies who need clean water and malnourished dogs.  It's only real when it affects you personally and when it does there is nothing you can do about it anyway, that is the truth.

To which people will respond, well why comment then, to which I will respond, well why not?

The inner arches aren't even rotten on that Transit and they didn't even take the long arm mirrors off.  What a waste.

TTony

The morning paper had been sat on the kitchen table all day.

It was only when I sat down this evening that I realised what the front page actually was ...

(the Independent).

Wolfetone

fretmeister said:

Have you overlooked the Genesis bit where God created the world? I think your map needs updating....

Drew_TNBD

Wolfetone said:

fretmeister said:

Have you overlooked the Genesis bit where God created the world? I think your map needs updating....

Allegedly.

littlegreenman

And already the tin-foil hat brigade are alleging it's a hoax! So, they've gone on nice holidays to fantasy island instead of a one-way trip to the morgue? SMH