Johnny Marr - is it just me ?

chillidoggy

It's the same with the frontman from U2. And their guitarist.

bertie

indeed,  have a wisdom

eclectic bunch arent we

dafuzz

Shark_Eyes said:

dafuzz said:

Johnny Marr? J'en ai marre.

I always believed that's where he got his name from, but apparently it was because nobody could pronounce Maher, and the drummer from the buzzcocks had the same name.

I should've googled it before posting - it's one of those things I'd always wondered about before we had the internet but have since forgotten to check. Like the other day when I finally looked up the lyrics to Informer by Snow.

Myranda

Deadman said:

Myranda said:

Well, I don't know who he is, so I guess I'm not very worshipful of him

You're kidding, right?

I'm bad with names, so rarely bother to read who is which band because even if I hear it/read it I'll likely forget later that day...

So plenty of famous guitarists names pass me by that probably shouldn't

ToneControl

Deadman said:

I think it depends on what genres of music you're into.

If you get an erection from watching the Joe Satrianis of the world with their one million notes in a minute playing style then you're less likely to appreciate Marr.

For me, it's obviously not about technical ability with him, it's about what he does with notes and how he adds to a chord in his own, unique style to get the sound just right. Not overly clever or technical, but it just sounds on the money.

It's very cliche to say 'Morrissey is a depressing twat' or 'Marr- I don't get the hype' in my opinion. I normally hear it from people who know fuck all about music. No disrespect to anyone on here mind.

If you're a big Marr fan, it might sound like a cliché to you to ask this question, but I haven't seen any informed debate amongst guitarists anywhere, hence asking here. I fully appreciate the personal taste background when discussing this, but we're all fellow guitarists here, so we can step away from that to some extent 

To double-check my opinions, I've just gone and listened to a few Smiths and Marr songs, and whilst the guitar works for the songs, and is competently played, it sounds to me like someone working very effectively within their limitations, with a narrow range of style variations, and I'd expect anyone wanting to play on a stage to be able to play any of these songs well enough to please a non-muso fan. Contrast this with the wider range of style variations and complexities that Andy Summers deployed across the Police albums back then. I'd rate the Edge far higher as an influential and

The Smiths had its own new style, which was a good thing. I tried to get into them back then, but just found it lacked anything I liked. Listening now, the guitar style reminds me of lots of typical rock styles like Jimmy page, mixed with a bit of Nigerian hi life and other stuff, all of which I liked, so I don't know why the Smiths didn't appeal to me. Maybe because I was listening to Prince Nico Mbarga and Sunny Ade anyway

There's a lot of bands I love listening to which I think have a similar level of musicianship and originality, and for none of these would I expect to see their Guitarist listed as 12th best ever English guitarist.

I don't want to listen to 1000 note a minute players all day btw (some of the day, but not all day), but if I made a list of textural guitar players, Johnny Marr would not be near the top of my list, hence me asking this question

On a light note: Amusingly, my claim to fame is that I appear in the Smiths' South Bank documentary of 1987: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbr57W70UdE  at 27:20s.  I got locked out of my flat for 2 hours (which was not a squat, I just tried to make it look that way to avoid getting my musical kit robbed), and the film crew turned up to film Hulme and the PSV club

 

 

randomhandclaps

 

ToneControl said:

 

To double-check my opinions, I've just gone and listened to a few Smiths and Marr songs, and whilst the guitar works for the songs, and is competently played, it sounds to me like someone working very effectively within their limitations, with a narrow range of style variations, and I'd expect anyone wanting to play on a stage to be able to play any of these songs well enough to please a non-muso fan. Contrast this with the wider range of style variations and complexities that Andy Summers deployed across the Police albums back then. I'd rate the Edge far higher as an influential 

 

Just like Keith Richards, Angus Young, Jimmy Page, Dave Gilmour, BB King,  Eric Clapton, Pete Townshend and so on.  These are all guitarist who play very effectively within their limitations and are regularly cited as 'Guitar Legends'. 

Does Johnny Marr compare with Steve Vai as a technician?  No of course not but then neither do any of those listed above.

I don't understand the direct comparison to Andy Summers as Andy Summers is recognised as a guitar icon for his own thing.  The comparison with The Edge is strange as firstly Johnny Marr is far, far more technically gifted than Johnny Marr so it kind of goes against your argument that what you see as Johnny Marr's limitations should rule him out as a guitar icon.  Unless you are very select in your listening I fail to see how you can draw any likeness between Johnny Marr's style and Jimmy Page's.  Most of Marr's playing was clean busy chords, more like Roger McGuinn if anyone.

Like I said earlier it does come down to - if you don't like The Smith then you won't appreciate Johnny Marr - which goes for hundreds of other groups too.  The Smiths however were the band that started the Manchester music movement which has spawned an almost unquantifiable amount of bands who almost all would rate Johnny Marr as an icon.  To describe The Edge as more influential is highly debatable.

It simply comes down to the fact that if you don't understand the influence and respect that Johnny Marr has, then you are clearly not in to the music he has made or influenced.  That's fair enough as it is all taste.  However to ask the question of why Johnny Marr is so respected and the go on to compare him to other non-relevant players is like a metal fair bemoaning the respect BB King has because he plays less notes than Kirk Hamfist.

JohnPerry

Great riff-writer and a decent player. I love his signature Jag, wonderful guitar. For me, John McGeogh (Magazine, Banshees) was even more inventive, earlier and of similar ilk. Morrissey is a man whose thinking has never evolved beyond adolescence 

ToneControl

randomhandclaps said:

 

ToneControl said:

 

To double-check my opinions, I've just gone and listened to a few Smiths and Marr songs, and whilst the guitar works for the songs, and is competently played, it sounds to me like someone working very effectively within their limitations, with a narrow range of style variations, and I'd expect anyone wanting to play on a stage to be able to play any of these songs well enough to please a non-muso fan. Contrast this with the wider range of style variations and complexities that Andy Summers deployed across the Police albums back then. I'd rate the Edge far higher as an influential 

 

Just like Keith Richards, Angus Young, Jimmy Page, Dave Gilmour, BB King,  Eric Clapton, Pete Townshend and so on.  These are all guitarist who play very effectively within their limitations and are regularly cited as 'Guitar Legends'. 

Does Johnny Marr compare with Steve Vai as a technician?  No of course not but then neither do any of those listed above.

I don't understand the direct comparison to Andy Summers as Andy Summers is recognised as a guitar icon for his own thing.  The comparison with The Edge is strange as firstly Johnny Marr is far, far more technically gifted than Johnny Marr so it kind of goes against your argument that what you see as Johnny Marr's limitations should rule him out as a guitar icon.  Unless you are very select in your listening I fail to see how you can draw any likeness between Johnny Marr's style and Jimmy Page's.  Most of Marr's playing was clean busy chords, more like Roger McGuinn if anyone.

Like I said earlier it does come down to - if you don't like The Smith then you won't appreciate Johnny Marr - which goes for hundreds of other groups too.  The Smiths however were the band that started the Manchester music movement which has spawned an almost unquantifiable amount of bands who almost all would rate Johnny Marr as an icon.  To describe The Edge as more influential is highly debatable.

It simply comes down to the fact that if you don't understand the influence and respect that Johnny Marr has, then you are clearly not in to the music he has made or influenced.  That's fair enough as it is all taste.  However to ask the question of why Johnny Marr is so respected and the go on to compare him to other non-relevant players is like a metal fair bemoaning the respect BB King has because he plays less notes than Kirk Hamfist.

I'm sorry to wind up Johnny Marr fans, and this is getting a bit more fraught than I was hoping for, this is not intended as a troll thing, I hope I'm not giving the impression I have any dislike of Johnny Marr,  I just can't understand what he plays that would make him rate so highly, and I'm not talking about song writing or arrangements here.  I understand why he's popular, but not why he is rated highly as one of the "best" guitarists

The list of limited guitarists has thrown me, I cannot agree that Dave Gilmour and Eric Clapton are players who have been forced to adopt a particular, limited style to sound good like Richards, Young, Townshend. Page is another thing entirely, playing lots of styles in a musical way without ever being technically great at many of them, I would swap my skills for that any day.

I thought of The Byrds too, wasn't sure if that was going back too far.

Jimmy Page played a lot of styles, my point being that he was as mainstream a rock player as you can get, but jangley chords were part of his repertoire & there was quite a bit of it about with plenty of players: "The song remains the same" is the example I have in mind - sorry I should have mentioned that

The comparison with Andy Summers for me is that he too plays lots of arpeggiated chords and does textural playing (which AFAIK is the distinctive feature that everyone likes about Marr) - and Summers plays with far greater complexity and variation, I'm surprised he doesn't get greater attention

The comparison with the Edge was a sentence I forgot to complete: I think his sound is more identified with him and was something new, most non-fans hearing delayed styles like that would point to the Edge, but I don't think that as many hearing jangly arpeggiated chords would say that was influenced by Marr, since so much of that style was already recorded by others.

I don't accept that not liking a band's material means that I am not entitled to make an assessment of their guitarist's skill and originality. This is probably true for punters, but not for open-minded musicians

As I say to everyone, I am not a fan of non-stop speedy playing, so I'm not saying that Vai & Satriani & others are "the best". For the record, for rock--pop type styles (as opposed to Jazz) I'd rate Jeff Beck, Dave Gilmour personally, I'm very much into "feel"

As I lived in Manchester from 1983 - 2002, I know that Joy Division and New Order kicked things off there, and there were other bands coming up at the same time as the Smiths but that's a bit pedantic on my part, since I know that many were indeed influenced by the Smiths and look on Johnny Marr as an Icon (which is fair enough), my query is not about that, it's "why is he rated highly as a guitarist?" not as a songwriter, as an influence, and arranger, or as an icon.

Anyway, I think I might have my answer - "Why is Johnny Marr rated highly as a guitarist?": "Because a lot of people who like his material rate him highly as a guitarist because they prefer his style". This would be contradicted if I learn that many who are not Smiths fans rate him highly as a guitarist 

Just to reiterate, I have no hate for Johnny Marr, he seems a good guy to me. I think Salford University were a bit cynical making him a Professor - I think that was a marketing move on their behalf, and so is fair enough - we should have more Professor guitarists maybe

bertie

randomhandclaps said:

   The Smiths however were the band that started the Manchester music movement 

got a lot to answer for then

ourmaninthenorth

bertie said:

randomhandclaps said:

   The Smiths however were the band that started the Manchester music movement 

got a lot to answer for then

You had to be there. 

Evilmags

Poor guy had to put up with Morrisey. Read some of the extracts from his autobiography. Makes Alan Partridge look normal. 

bertie

ourmaninthenorth said:

You had to be there. 

Ive been there, no thanks

ourmaninthenorth

How will we cope without you? please reconsider

viz

Gotta listen to the beginning of armageddon days are here again, or whatever it's called, by The The.

ESBlonde

I have long struggled to understand the aura of Marr, doesn't help that I dislike the smiths drones.

The fact that he doesn't have a lot of imitators must say something.
 

Deadman

His Modest Mouse offerings are decent. Dashboard is a great song, different for him.

Paul_C

randomhandclaps

No-one's fraught.  I just find it odd to single him out in a world with limited but lucky generic guitarists  who feature on the front of the commercially driven guitar magazines. Every time I walk in to my local Tesco I guarantee one will feature the lead guitarist from the current hot topic metal band whose name no-one will recall in five years time .

You are absolutely right in the Salford university Professorship, but my betting is it was awarded because he along with The Smiths were/are probably Salford's biggest outputs.  Universities award bollocks doctorates all the time, it just marketing hype. That said, when you hear Johnny Marr talk his knowledge of music is far greater than most you will come across, he is a bonafide muso. 

I grew up with a thorough dislike of The Smiths, mainly down to one man.  Johnny Marr however has always stood out.  Regardless of your musical tastes when you compare him with his contemporaries of the same era and musical scenes he, John Squire and a handful of others are streets ahead of what's around.

For me personally for someone to be considered a guitar icon/hero/whatever they have to be someone who made kids want to pick up a guitar or they made those already playing stop and think 'How's he doing that?'.   There were guys in the 70s like Johnny Ramone, Steve Jones, Mick Jones and then more recently the like of Kurt Cobain and Noel Gallagher who are all incredibly limited in their guitar playing ability but they got kids picking up guitar and attracted hundreds of thousands of people to witness them spanking their planks.  Meanwhile at the other end you have some superlatively gifted session players who very few musos and even fewer of the public are aware of. 

I don't find it odd that you don't like him.  As others like Bertie and ChilliDoggy have stated, it's not there thing.  Regardless of personal tastes if you cannot see/hear why Johnny Marr is rated and recognised by musos then you have either not heard enough or aren't looking at it objectively.  It's like when youngsters tut when you mention someone like James Taylor, Chet Atkins or Scotty Moore. 

Most of Johnny Marr's work is rhythmically based much like Pete Townshend and I suppose it does comes down to a case that if you think Pete Townshend is rightfully a guitar legend then to complain about Johnny Marr seems strange.  However if you wouldn't deem Pete Townshend to be a guitar legend then your definition of what qualifies someone to be considered one is different to most musos and the general public.

Besides, Steve Vai is a muso obviously rated him  -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBUcpqavpWQ

Deadman

Brilliant stuff RHC.

mellowsun

Listening to Johnny Marr's playing with the Smiths in the '80s is the main reason I started playing guitar. He's a fantastic guitarist, but his strength is adding great, harmonically interesting guitar lines to existing songs. On his own, he's not a great songwriter imho. I'm not keen on his current output - it's beginning to sound a bit middle-aged blues-rock.

Every 'indie' guitarist since then has been influenced by him and tried to imitate him. John Squire (Stone Roses) was the best of these - he took what Marr did and took it to another level. But even he descended into blue-rock shite with the second Stone Roses album. So the classic Marr style and influence was perhaps a fleeting thing.

Shred and djent may be the dominant styles now, but one day more chordal based playing might come back into fashion.