Johnny Marr - is it just me ?

mellowsun

hywelg said:

Please people, post some clips of Johnny Marrs finest playing. 

Check out Daniel Earwicker's YouTube channel for a track by track breakdown of how to create Johnny's finest playing.

Here's a good starting point

and 

also

bertie

octatonic said:

Liverpool sound?

Zummerzet Zound

(not really)

randomhandclaps

octatonic said:

 

Composer is a big label-

Certainly they all wrote music

Which is why they are composers.  A composer is someone who writes music, whether it be a radio jingle or an hour long symphony.

There is a common tendency to snobbery when comparing the likes of Mozart with contemporary and popular music composers.  In doing this people ignore the massive financial backing and facilities the really successful orchestral composers of C18 & C19 particularly had to call upon.  Anybody who believes Beethoven sat at a piano and wrote a completely perfect piece straight off without any adjustment and suggestions made by their lackeys or the musicians they work with is buying way too much into legend the reality of the time.  How would one write for an orchestra if they were not in a sufficient position to both view and have access to one? 

Col_Decker

I mis-read the title as John Mayer. Seems all the above posts are still valid.

hywelg

mellowsun said:

hywelg said:

Please people, post some clips of Johnny Marrs finest playing. 

Check out Daniel Earwicker's YouTube channel for a track by track breakdown of how to create Johnny's finest playing.

Here's a good starting point

OK I watched them from start to finish. I'll need more than that to convinve me he's some sort of guitar hero. Nice composition but nothing your average player couldn't conjour up. The post-production stuff on the first video was really nice, but the underlying playing wasn't anything special.

More please........

Col_Decker said:

I mis-read the title as John Mayer. Seems all the above posts are still valid.

Indeed. but I have seen some of his videos, not the screaming girls type recordings, where he does come across as being very good indeed, but he seems to be a bit patchy? But lets not divert this thread.....

Deadman

Everyone is expecting amazing technical ability but you won't find it. It's like asking us to show you how musically gifted the sex pistols were.

randomhandclaps

Deadman said:

Everyone is expecting amazing technical ability but you won't find it. It's like asking us to show you how musically gifted the sex pistols were.

It's not quite that difficult!!!  I jest of course.

Deadman

Lol@randomhandclaps. Fair shout.
I can't comment on this thread anymore as my man love for JM is clouding my judgement.

Col_Decker

hywelg said:

  ... But lets not divert this thread.....

Not devert the thread? Is this your first day or something?

 

has anybody mentioned Dawkins yet?

randomhandclaps

I sometimes takes the dogs for a walk around Box Hill in Surrey which is relatively close to Dawkin.

ToneControl

my thought was not that Johnny Marr wasn't a good chap, wrote songs no one liked, had no sound of his own, or was not musical.

It's that in a list of best English guitarists ever (and the equivalent cap doffing I read in Guitarist), I am very surprised that he is listed as a better guitarist (I assume this means technique + quality + style + fame + influence, etc) than Peter Green, Brian May, Tony Iommi, Andy Summers, etc

The only explanation so far is that Smiths fans like him a lot, and can detect something special in his playing that the rest of us aren't able to.

I'm quite happy to acknowledge the weaknesses of all my favourite guitarists, so I'm assuming other guitarists would have the same outlook, and help me understand what's happening here. Maybe it's just JM's turn to sit in the sun at the minute, which is nice, I just can't explain why, since I can't hear anything unusual or original in the techniques and arrangements in the pieces I've heard. When I was living in Manchester in 1983, fellow musos were sharing records & tapes featuring Prince Nico Mbarga (e.g. "Sweet Mother") and other west African stuff, and the most unusual elements I can hear in JM's material from that era is a nod towards that. If I'm correct that would mean he's good at fusing influences, and it would explain why normal rock players find it hard to play. I'm comparing this with what I'd consider more ground breaking work by Peter Green, Tony Iommi, etc. I hope I'm making my point well without anyone thinking I'm a Johnny Marr hater, I'd buy him a beer anyday, but recently reading magazines, it feels as if he has been beatified, and I'd like to know what's behind this

Lixarto

I always preferred the Cure to the Smiths (It's not hard, is it? Bob Smith or Morrisey?) but still have a lot of time for Johnny Marr.

I approve of the way he took his folk influences (Jansch, etc) and applied them to pop music as opposed to the done-to-death blues rock of just about everybody else.

A breath of fresh air.

randomhandclaps

You are going to go around in circles forever with this question because you don't really want to hear the answer.  In this thread alone it is not just Smiths fan who say they rate him as a guitarist.

The original question you asked is are you missing something.  The simple answer appears to be yes. 

You say you aren't driven by being a 'Johnny Marr hater' but clearly the fact he ranked above other people 'you' rate more clearly irked you enough to write this.

Although I had always respected Johnny Marr without being a Smith fan, I first looked in any depth at the Smiths stuff when I was doing a dissertation on the roots of 20th century music waves.  Obviously a large amount looked at 60's Liverpool and late 70/80s Manchester.  If you can honestly listen to Johnny Marr's compositions and not see anything that would justify him being respected and lauded as a guitarist then you aren't looking at it objectively.  It's no different to when someone says "I don't like The Beatles, I think they're overrated anyway.".

It's ridiculous to say this is his moment in the sun, if it were he would be suffering from severe sunstroke by now.  Since the mid 80s other guitarists have applauded his output.  Look at the list Monquixote posted earlier and the people who have wanted to work with him.  Was that because they thought in 2013 Guitarist magazine would see fit to put him on the cover for his moment of glory?

OK, you love Andy Summers.  Is Andy Summers a phenomenal musician? Yes.  Do guys who don't buy Guitarist magazine realise that?  Yes.  Is he as famous as Johnny Marr?  I reckon it's close.  Has he influenced as many bands as Johnny Marr? Probably not.

Despite other musicians within this thread telling you they think he's great, you still write of their opinions as being blind Smiths fans rather than the chance you are indeed missing something or just plain don't like him.

 The title of the thread should read "Why Doesn't Guitarist Magazine Only Put Guitarist Who I Rate On Their Cover".

This as becoming very similar to the Guthrie Govan thread where at points some people seem to feel that not liking what someone does is the same as their output being not worthy of recognition by others. 

chrisj1602

I like Johnny Marr and his new album, and I'd love a go on one of his signature Jaguars.  Some don't like Johnny Marr, his new album and don't want a go on one of his signature Jags.

RocknRollDave

ToneControl said:

my thought was not that Johnny Marr wasn't a good chap, wrote songs no one liked, had no sound of his own, or was not musical.

It's that in a list of best English guitarists ever (and the equivalent cap doffing I read in Guitarist), I am very surprised that he is listed as a better guitarist (I assume this means technique + quality + style + fame + influence, etc) than Peter Green, Brian May, Tony Iommi, Andy Summers, etc

The only explanation so far is that Smiths fans like him a lot, and can detect something special in his playing that the rest of us aren't able to.

The main explanation is that "TOP 100 GUITARISTS EVER!" lists are always totally arbitrary and mysteriously only seem to appear in magazines during months when no famous guitarists are touring or releasing records or taking interviews.

There's no such thing as the top 17th guitarist in the world, or the 34th best Rock guitarist or whatever..it's all too subjective.

Johnny Marr isn't better than Peter Green...who isn't better than Brian May...who isn't better than ..etc.

For the last week I have been listening to loads of Led Zeppelin, including Page's incredibly shonky live guitar work at Knebworth.
He's definitely NOT "the best guitarist in the world" in my opinion. Nevertheless, he was the only guitarist I felt like listening to last week and I loved hearing his playing, warts and all.

Johnny Marr, as I said before, demonstrated a number of different techniques and styles throughout the Smiths. Doesn't mean his work was any good...that's down to taste...but it does justify his inclusion in guitar magazines devoted to the exploration of guitarists and their techniques.

ToneControl

randomhandclaps said:

You are going to go around in circles forever with this question because you don't really want to hear the answer.  In this thread alone it is not just Smiths fan who say they rate him as a guitarist.

The original question you asked is are you missing something.  The simple answer appears to be yes. 

You say you aren't driven by being a 'Johnny Marr hater' but clearly the fact he ranked above other people 'you' rate more clearly irked you enough to write this.

Although I had always respected Johnny Marr without being a Smith fan, I first looked in any depth at the Smiths stuff when I was doing a dissertation on the roots of 20th century music waves.  Obviously a large amount looked at 60's Liverpool and late 70/80s Manchester.  If you can honestly listen to Johnny Marr's compositions and not see anything that would justify him being respected and lauded as a guitarist then you aren't looking at it objectively.  It's no different to when someone says "I don't like The Beatles, I think they're overrated anyway.".

It's ridiculous to say this is his moment in the sun, if it were he would be suffering from severe sunstroke by now.  Since the mid 80s other guitarists have applauded his output.  Look at the list Monquixote posted earlier and the people who have wanted to work with him.  Was that because they thought in 2013 Guitarist magazine would see fit to put him on the cover for his moment of glory?

OK, you love Andy Summers.  Is Andy Summers a phenomenal musician? Yes.  Do guys who don't buy Guitarist magazine realise that?  Yes.  Is he as famous as Johnny Marr?  I reckon it's close.  Has he influenced as many bands as Johnny Marr? Probably not.

Despite other musicians within this thread telling you they think he's great, you still write of their opinions as being blind Smiths fans rather than the chance you are indeed missing something or just plain don't like him.

 The title of the thread should read "Why Doesn't Guitarist Magazine Only Put Guitarist Who I Rate On Their Cover".

This as becoming very similar to the Guthrie Govan thread where at points some people seem to feel that not liking what someone does is the same as their output being not worthy of recognition by others. 

I rate him a guitarist too, and it's curiosity driving this, not being irked -  I don't expect most of my favourites to appear in polls or Guitarist, and I can't remember so much talk about him 5 years ago

What the thread has told me is that some don't rate him very highly, but respect him, some think he plays well - within his limits (which is what I think), and some who think he has something very rare and special, I've also been told that "if you don't like the music then you won't be able to understand why he's good", which really is not true, there's loads of guitarists I admire whose music I loathe. Jeff Beck's done plenty of ropey albums, but I'd put him ahead of anyone in my personal league table. I can't accept that as an open-minded musician I am not entitled to assess someone's playing because I don't like his material. I admire Brian May but can't stand any Queen stuff, same with Ritchie Blackmore, and many others. I think Vai and Satriani are amazing, but get bored with their albums halfway through.

Anyway, I can see that this is a sensitive subject, so my apologies to the fans for distress caused 

bertie

Lixarto said:

I always preferred the Cure to the Smiths

 always more of a Prevention man,    much better

randomhandclaps

ToneControl said:

 

I rate him a guitarist too, and it's curiosity driving this, not being irked -  I don't expect most of my favourites to appear in polls or Guitarist, and I can't remember so much talk about him 5 years ago

What the thread has told me is that some don't rate him very highly, but respect him, some think he plays well - within his limits (which is what I think), and some who think he has something very rare and special, I've also been told that "if you don't like the music then you won't be able to understand why he's good", which really is not true, there's loads of guitarists I admire whose music I loathe. Jeff Beck's done plenty of ropey albums, but I'd put him ahead of anyone in my personal league table. I can't accept that as an open-minded musician I am not entitled to assess someone's playing because I don't like his material. I admire Brian May but can't stand any Queen stuff, same with Ritchie Blackmore, and many others. I think Vai and Satriani are amazing, but get bored with their albums halfway through.

Anyway, I can see that this is a sensitive subject, so my apologies to the fans for distress caused 

This is like one of those endless religious thread where some says "I think religion is bad because...." or "I think atheist are bad because....", then you read 4000 posts and realise the person who started the thread didn't want an adult discussion or wasn't looking to broaden their personal perspective and views.  They were in fact in need of affirmation of their own rigid view. 

It did make me chuckle when both in this and your earlier post you suggested things were getting 'fraught' or that 'fans were getting distressed'.  It does make it far easier to dismiss others opinions (which you asked for) as born of passion rather than their balanced view.  There is not one person who wrote anything like "Johnny Marr is a God and you are a f*#king idiot!".  Other musicians gave you their view and some posted evidence for it.   

The most significant thing missing from this thread is a post that reads "I am a massive fan of British indie music but think Johnny Marr is vastly overrated.  You choose to dismiss any positive support for Marr as obsessive Smiths fans even though several have mentions liking Marr's work in the Smiths but not the Smiths.

Why ask a question that you weren't willing to be objective towards or take peoples opinions on?  Each of your responses has been a repeat on your original view that Johnny Marr is flavour of the month and you rate others ahead of him.

I've seen both Lennon and McCartney on the cover of Guitarist.  Both far less gifted players than Marr but can you imagine how silly it would seem challenging their right to recognition?

The thing that concerns me most about these sort of threads where someone is just inflexibly saying such and such a famous guitarist is grossly overrated is the consequences of them seeing it.  It would sadden me if they were happily sat besides their heated swimming pool strumming their signature guitar whilst their butler sifted through the sack of royalty checks that had arrived that morning then suddenly they came across this thread.

On a plus note I have now written so much about Johnny Marr that Salford university have offered me an honorary doctorate.  Mods, how do I change my user name to DrRandomHandClaps?

 

ourmaninthenorth

randomhandclaps said:

On a plus note I have now written so much about Johnny Marr that Salford university have offered me an honorary doctorate.  Mods, how do I change my user name to DrRandomHandClaps?

 

As a 50 year resident of said burgh, I've got the right hump. The only honour Salford University has ever bestowed upon me is a bloody parking ticket ...  b-(  

I'll be bringing it up at the next town meeting...

:-B

randomhandclaps

I'm not sure how far my new powers extend but I shall certainly mention it in my acceptance speech.....and watch where I park.