Johnny Marr - is it just me ?

Skipped

It seems that we have had so many discussions like this.
Especially in that other place.....
I don't see how you can seperate the man from the music. After all....it is music that we are discussing. A form of communication.
If you have a look at the guys who are considered the world's greatest pianists (of all time), I would suggest to you that the candidates are all of similar technical ability. Achieving those levels for a musician requires hard work but is not in any way impossible or unusual - as a million YouTube guitarists can demonstrate.
So the factor which sets aside the worlds greatest pianists (and surely Guitarists...?) is their ability to communicate emotion...

ourmaninthenorth

randomhandclaps said:

I'm not sure how far my new powers extend but I shall certainly mention it in my acceptance speech.....and watch where I park.

Fer chrissakes don't mention me by name - I never did pay the bugger. With penalty charges I probably owe them in excess of a high amount of guineas... :-\" :-$

ToneControl

randomhandclaps said:

 

This is like one of those endless religious thread where some says "I think religion is bad because...." or "I think atheist are bad because....", then you read 4000 posts and realise the person who started the thread didn't want an adult discussion or wasn't looking to broaden their personal perspective and views.  They were in fact in need of affirmation of their own rigid view. 

It did make me chuckle when both in this and your earlier post you suggested things were getting 'fraught' or that 'fans were getting distressed'.  It does make it far easier to dismiss others opinions (which you asked for) as born of passion rather than their balanced view.  There is not one person who wrote anything like "Johnny Marr is a God and you are a f*#king idiot!".  Other musicians gave you their view and some posted evidence for it.   

The most significant thing missing from this thread is a post that reads "I am a massive fan of British indie music but think Johnny Marr is vastly overrated.  You choose to dismiss any positive support for Marr as obsessive Smiths fans even though several have mentions liking Marr's work in the Smiths but not the Smiths.

Why ask a question that you weren't willing to be objective towards or take peoples opinions on?  Each of your responses has been a repeat on your original view that Johnny Marr is flavour of the month and you rate others ahead of him.

I've seen both Lennon and McCartney on the cover of Guitarist.  Both far less gifted players than Marr but can you imagine how silly it would seem challenging their right to recognition?

The thing that concerns me most about these sort of threads where someone is just inflexibly saying such and such a famous guitarist is grossly overrated is the consequences of them seeing it.  It would sadden me if they were happily sat besides their heated swimming pool strumming their signature guitar whilst their butler sifted through the sack of royalty checks that had arrived that morning then suddenly they came across this thread.

On a plus note I have now written so much about Johnny Marr that Salford university have offered me an honorary doctorate.  Mods, how do I change my user name to DrRandomHandClaps?

 

The only people in this thread who don't like the Smiths and have been positive have said he is a good guitarist or a competent guitarist, which would be in line with my thinking - in fact I was the most positive when I said he was a great guitarist, which I think pretty much for the reasons the fans give - good sound, individual, pleasing arrangements, etc

I have wondered whether starting this thread has been quite as jolly an idea as I'd hoped, and I don't think I'm wrong in detecting hackles raised. Is it really such heresy to ask such a question?

ICBM

Just pray someone doesn't start one about The Edge .

(Waiting for the inevitable now .)

hywelg

ToneControl said:

I have wondered whether starting this thread has been quite as jolly an idea as I'd hoped, and I don't think I'm wrong in detecting hackles raised. Is it really such heresy to ask such a question?

It appears so.

I too asked to be educated about JM, so I asked for some clips of his best work. So far, not much has been forthcoming. Is that because you have to like the Smiths to 'get'  him? I don't like the Smiths, clarification I don't like Morriseys voice, a lot like Leonard Cohen with a band, music to cut your wrists to, but take away or substitute the singer and the songs would be very different, maybe. But...... give me a song with a good guitar part no matter what style or genre and I'll have a listen.

ToneControl

yes, help me out, tell me the best songs to listen to for the guitar work

hywelg

ICBM said:

Just pray someone doesn't start one about The Edge .

Go on, you start it. Anyone calling themselves 'The Edge' deserves everything they get.

Deadman

hywelg said:

ToneControl said:

I have wondered whether starting this thread has been quite as jolly an idea as I'd hoped, and I don't think I'm wrong in detecting hackles raised. Is it really such heresy to ask such a question?

It appears so.

I too asked to be educated about JM, so I asked for some clips of his best work. So far, not much has been forthcoming. Is that because you have to like the Smiths to 'get'  him? I don't like the Smiths, clarification I don't like Morriseys voice, a lot like Leonard Cohen with a band, music to cut your wrists to, but take away or substitute the singer and the songs would be very different, maybe. But...... give me a song with a good guitar part no matter what style or genre and I'll have a listen.

I can't give you technical (obviously), but I can give you a guitar that is the most befitting tribute and one that fits the concept of the inevitably sad lyrics perfectly.
JM isn't going out to be flash Harry here. He's just doing what a lot of us have been telling you about, that is providing a perfect (and to most, unique) accompaniment. You'll more than likely hate it, which I can understand, but for those of us who dig the old Manchester scene and Indie in general, it's musical heaven. Perhaps we're just musically challenged compared to your good self? If that's what the naysayers believe then I'm cool with that.

ICBM

hywelg said:

Go on, you start it. Anyone calling themselves 'The Edge' deserves everything they get.

Worldwide fame and wealth beyond most people's dreams?

I agree, it's a stupid name. But no more so than "Slash".

johnnyurq

I always wondered if The Edge took his nom de plume from and SLF song title which is very similar.


But yes not by far the twattiest stage name out there.

Paulo

Deadman;68766" said:

[quote="Paulo;68743"]I used to jam with Johnny Marr on occasion or just listen to him noodling on guitar. He was a tremendously inventive and original player albeit as someone who was a melting pot of his influences. He had an intuitive understanding of altered tunings and would come up with ideas and voicings you wouldn't expect. I rated him as a musician though I've not heard much that innovation in more recent recordings.

Really? I'm impressed. What years?[/quote]

Mid 80s. Nothing to be impressed about though :-)

gilby

I found this a little while back, Johnny discussing fender amps. There's a few examples of smiths tunes and bits and pieces but I love the comment he makes in regards to the kinks about 1:15 in.

Deadman

Paulo;69417" said:

[quote="Deadman;68766"][quote="Paulo;68743"]I used to jam with Johnny Marr on occasion or just listen to him noodling on guitar. He was a tremendously inventive and original player albeit as someone who was a melting pot of his influences. He had an intuitive understanding of altered tunings and would come up with ideas and voicings you wouldn't expect. I rated him as a musician though I've not heard much that innovation in more recent recordings.

Really? I'm impressed. What years?[/quote]

Mid 80s. Nothing to be impressed about though :-)

[/quote]

You're kidding me! Well I am impressed!

hywelg

Deadman said:

I can't give you technical (obviously), but I can give you a guitar that is the most befitting tribute and one that fits the concept of the inevitably sad lyrics perfectly.
JM isn't going out to be flash Harry here. He's just doing what a lot of us have been telling you about, that is providing a perfect (and to most, unique) accompaniment. You'll more than likely hate it, which I can understand, but for those of us who dig the old Manchester scene and Indie in general, it's musical heaven. Perhaps we're just musically challenged compared to your good self? If that's what the naysayers believe then I'm cool with that.

I listened to that all the way through, trying very very hard to ignore the vocals and concentrate on the guitar part. I agree that it fits the song nicely, but he doesn't vary his playing hardly at all, making it quite a boring listen. He is just playing the notes of the chords with little added by way of flavour, dynamics or variation.

I don't think you're musically challenged, probably that you just haven't put your favourite music in perspective so you are defending your favourite music, thats fine, we all do it. A mate of mine keeps arguing that Richard Thompson is the best British guitarist, but thats because he is really into folk music. It take many many years to revisit the music of your youth, your formative years, and critically analyse it from a distance in time.

When I was growing up I listened to Jimi, The (Small) Faces, Quo, Rory, The Rolling Stones, Deep Purple, The Beatles, Bowie, Free, Black Sabbath, Led Zep, Bad Co, along with Barclay James Harvest, Roxy Music, Wild Turkey (Bernie Marsdens first band), Yes (sold the Yes Album two weeks after having bought it) etc etc. And bear in mind these bands were churning out brand new fresh ideas that had never been heard before. We would all argue like heck about who was the best guitarist, singer, band. None of it means anything now of course, because ten years later i started listening to early Gary Moore, Fleetwood Mac, SRV, Whitesnake, Dio, UFO, etc etc. It puts things into perspective a bit for me.

So in that first list, we have Jimi Hendrix, Ronny Wood, Stevie Marriott, Francis Rossi, Rory Gallagher, Mick Taylor, Keef, Richie Blackmore, John Lennon, George Harrison, Mick Ronson, Paul Kossoff, Tony Iommi, Jimmy Page, Mick Ralphs, etc etc..One heck of a list I think you'd agree. Does JM have that sort of competition in his era? No.

So, for the band(s) that has the most enduring appeal for me Free (then Bad Co) would I argue that Mick Ralphs deserves to be on a list of the best 25 British guitarists? Well I probably would have back in the day, but not now. Top 100 definitely. But would I put his predecessor in there? Most assuredly, he was and still is iconic in a way that Ralphs isn't. Would I put JM above Ralphs, no, but some people with a more time limited experience would even put JM above Koss in any (however pointless) list, because it depends who or how you ask the question.

So just because a guitar player happens to be in your favourite band, a band with some critical success and a lot of followers, it doesn't follow ipso facto, that he is one of the best guitarists ever. If you narrow the question to is he the best of his era? possibly. If you ask is he the best guitarist in the Smiths, quite probably. Though lets all remember what John Lennon said when Ringo was asked what its like to be the best drummer in the world. 'He's not even the best drummer in the Beatles'.

hywelg

gilby said:

I found this a little while back, Johnny discussing fender amps. There's a few examples of smiths tunes and bits and pieces but I love the comment he makes in regards to the kinks about 1:15 in.

Nice bit of playing at 3:55. Not much else going on in there though. Keep em coming. I am learning more about JM all the time.

Evilmags

He is David Cameron and Michael Gove's favorite guitarist...

RocknRollDave

No he's not, he's David Cameron and Michael Gove's favourite guitarist..... to name to try and make themselves look cool.

randomhandclaps

George Osborne's favourite guitarist is Dave Hill BTW. 

PolarityMan

Deadman said:

hywelg said:

ToneControl said:

I have wondered whether starting this thread has been quite as jolly an idea as I'd hoped, and I don't think I'm wrong in detecting hackles raised. Is it really such heresy to ask such a question?

It appears so.

I too asked to be educated about JM, so I asked for some clips of his best work. So far, not much has been forthcoming. Is that because you have to like the Smiths to 'get'  him? I don't like the Smiths, clarification I don't like Morriseys voice, a lot like Leonard Cohen with a band, music to cut your wrists to, but take away or substitute the singer and the songs would be very different, maybe. But...... give me a song with a good guitar part no matter what style or genre and I'll have a listen.

I can't give you technical (obviously), but I can give you a guitar that is the most befitting tribute and one that fits the concept of the inevitably sad lyrics perfectly.
JM isn't going out to be flash Harry here. He's just doing what a lot of us have been telling you about, that is providing a perfect (and to most, unique) accompaniment. You'll more than likely hate it, which I can understand, but for those of us who dig the old Manchester scene and Indie in general, it's musical heaven. Perhaps we're just musically challenged compared to your good self? If that's what the naysayers believe then I'm cool with that.

Im sorry but the guitar in that video was terrible, you could take it out and replace it with say keys and the song wouldn't be overly affected in any way. Serves no functional part in the composition for me.

ewal

Although I question the value of judging the contribution of an individual to a tune, I always loved the guitar work (and bass line) on this - Barbarism Begins At Home