Johnny Marr - is it just me ?

ToneControl

Can we turn this round and do something like this:

take it in turns over time to take an artist we like who is obscure or misunderstood, and try to inform our fellow forumites about them, launching a thread and explaining the best bits and techniques, etc. I'd choose someone like Michael Brook for example.

I've been glad to listen to old smiths stuff to see if I can learn more, but it would probably better to have the proponent launching the thread rather than the antagonist, which is not a role I want to be in very often

randomhandclaps

 

 

Whilst this 'theory' exists can you see why incorrectly saying it was a fact in your earlier post gave the wrong impression of snobbery?  I personally don't see a response of personal insults and I apologise if that how to took something.

FWIW there obviously is a pattern for individuals to seek out more challenging material but it depends on what you are looking to be challenged by, i.e chordal diversity, lyrical content, melodic variations etc.  It doesn't have anything to do with musical understanding and people personal musical taste have absolutely no relevance to their musical intelligence or understanding.

 

RocknRollDave

ToneControl said:

The Emperor's new clothes reference is because the response to me not seeing something special there, which people say there is, has repeatedly been "there's something wrong with your perception", rather than any kind of rational discussion about technique or style.

I listed some interesting elements to be found in his technique quite early on in the discussion.

ToneControl

RocknRollDave said:

ToneControl said:

The Emperor's new clothes reference is because the response to me not seeing something special there, which people say there is, has repeatedly been "there's something wrong with your perception", rather than any kind of rational discussion about technique or style.

I listed some interesting elements to be found in his technique quite early on in the discussion.

you did, thanks for that, I was hoping to see mostly that kind of response, and more explanations about playing styles with examples

Deadman

You wouldn't have got that from me. I'm far too lazy. Some of your responses are epic! Well done lads. Team hug.

UnclePsychosis

For me the genius of Johnny Marr less not in the technical difficulty of what he plays (although I think that many of his lines are actually a lot harder than you might think - its rare to see a covers band do a decent Smiths) but in the composition of the lines that he plays.

The idea that Johnny Marr could be replaced by any old guitarist and The Smiths would have sounded the same is frankly laughable. Imagine "This Charming Man" without that guitar part. It's impossible. And who else was writing guitar lines that sounded anything like that in 1983?

My favourite Marr moments are probably in This Charming Man, Still Ill, Ask, and What Difference Does It Make? Technically astounding? Probably not. Influential, unique, and iconic? Absolutely.

lustycourtier

Whenever I hear THis Charming Man Im always astounded by that riff. How on earth did he write that?!? Its rare (read never) to hear anyone play it spot on as well.

breakstuff

Saw Morrissey a couple of years ago at Grimsby auditorium when he did a tour of lesser known venues round the country.His guitarist Jesse Tobias couldn't get anywhere near the feel or sound of This charming man.Way too rocked up with power chords flying everywhere.There's a difference to trying to put your own stamp in a song and completely murdering it.

Evilmags

RocknRollDave said:

No he's not, he's David Cameron and Michael Gove's favourite guitarist..... to name to try and make themselves look cool.

Gove was a massive Smiths fan at school. Im afraid everything he says about that is true. 

gilby

UnclePsychosis;70528" said:

And who else was writing guitar lines that sounded anything like that in 1983?

Think this sums it up for me. Growing up in the 80's Johnny/The Smiths were a breath of fresh air, very unique, the broke a mold as the cliche goes.Think you'll find the most ardent smiths fan are middle aged (cough cough) like myself (almost).

Have a wisdom

ewal

UnclePsychosis said:

For me the genius of Johnny Marr less not in the technical difficulty of what he plays (...) but in the composition of the lines that he plays.

Spot on. There were a few guitarists around in the post-punk era that were doing very distinctive things - Andy Gill, John McGeoch, Roland Howard, Will Sergeant, all the American guys, etc. But in most cases, even though they had their own sound, you could hear how the got there and understand the influences. That wasn't the case with Johnny Marr -  This Charming Man had no obvious predecessors... But at the same time it was very melodic accessible pop music.

Deadman

Here we go, Johnny's answered all of your questions:

EricTheWeary

Just skimming through here.
There are a limited number of guitarists who are well known, musically active, who will give the kind of interviews the guitar press like ( friendly, happy to discuss string guages,etc) and have made the connection that the guitar press is not only one of the few bits of the music press left but massively uncritical. So they get recycled over and over and Johnny has joined this list so gets a high profile amongst guitar mag ( and related fora) readers.
Wether he was/ is that interesting or good doesn't have much bearing on why we see so much of him TBH. 80% of this thread ( okay, I haven't read every word) could have been about Joe Bonamassa.
Anyway, surely JM's biggest influence has been on the sales of Grolsch amongst guitarists.

Bidley

I'd never heard of him until I started seeing him on loads of guitar magazines and getting mentioned on the old MR forum. I never really got into the Smiths, I wasn't around at the time (born in 1986) they were around so I don't really get why he's so popular either. Equally, I don't care that he is - it annoys me more that the guitarists from shitty 'metal' bands (Mick Thompson, Jim Root, Matt Heafy, Synyster Gates[?!] etc) are always on these lists.

PolarityMan

Lots of people have mentioned "this charming man" so I checked it out but once again I find the bass to be doing all the heavy lifting in that song. The guitar part isn't as superflous as in the other song but I don't get what people are hearing in this at all.

mellowsun

Here's one of my favourite pieces of JM's playing, on the melancholic 'Back to the old house'

mellowsun

And of course on one of the greatest indie-pop songs ever written:

holnrew

PolarityMan said:

Lots of people have mentioned "this charming man" so I checked it out but once again I find the bass to be doing all the heavy lifting in that song. The guitar part isn't as superflous as in the other song but I don't get what people are hearing in this at all.

I don't agree.

randomhandclaps

PolarityMan said:

Lots of people have mentioned "this charming man" so I checked it out but once again I find the bass to be doing all the heavy lifting in that song. The guitar part isn't as superflous as in the other song but I don't get what people are hearing in this at all.

If you were expecting something more dominant or powerful then you are going to be disappointed.  As long as I could buy guitar magazines, when I had know idea who The Smith were apart that gladioli waving weirdo on TOTP, This Charming Man consistently featured in 'Greatest Riffs' articles in both British ones and more significantly American ones where the Smiths were not particularly successful.  I would say that if his playing on This Charming Man doesn't even seem fundamentally important to the track then what you are looking for in a guitar player you won't find in Johnny Marr.

Part of the problem with a great deal of guitarists is we seem all too willing to pluck them out of the natural environment of their band and see what they can do.  It just doesn't work for some people.  Keith Richards would be a good example of this.  There is nothing I see from Keef that would convince me in his own right (ignoring the Stones) he would he be one of the top 100 guitarists of all time.  However common sense says you have to look at what he has done.  He may fall on is arse in a different style band but at the end of the day he is a cornerstone and primary power in the guitar based band that is The Rolling Stones.  Only the biased or short sighted would deny Keef the recognition he deserves.

In the same way Marr was the primary musical force in the guitar based band The Smiths.  They were hugely successful and kick-started a whole movement.  Thousands of bands sight The Smiths and Marr as an influence.  What's more is in any 100 greatest albums ever guff they always feature.

The situation is a bit like watching a team sport like football.  Everybody know the names of the guy who scores the goals and has the fancy celebration.  When you watch any sport for a while though you notice those other guys who have a tremendous effect on the game by just doing their job well. 

ToneControl

found this when looking for other stuff, I hope this is a treat for some of you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DH6B06GwjQ#t=27