The Rugby Union Thread

digitalscream

crunchman said:

Scrums are the best bit.  When I was playing in my youth, getting the opposing scrum on roller skates was the highlight of the game.  I think the forwards cared more about that than winning the game.

Whatever they do has to work at all levels of the game.

But how often does that really happen? Unless there's a massive mismatch between the teams, it's incredibly rare. As a finger-in-the-air guess, I'd say at least 95% of scrums are completely uneventful (thanks to the crooked feeds that are just part of the game now), reset or end in a penalty.

crunchman

digitalscream said:

crunchman said:

Scrums are the best bit.  When I was playing in my youth, getting the opposing scrum on roller skates was the highlight of the game.  I think the forwards cared more about that than winning the game.

Whatever they do has to work at all levels of the game.

But how often does that really happen? Unless there's a massive mismatch between the teams, it's incredibly rare. As a finger-in-the-air guess, I'd say at least 95% of scrums are completely uneventful (thanks to the crooked feeds that are just part of the game now), reset or end in a penalty.

A directive to the refs could fix the crooked feeds overnight.

fretmeister

crunchman said:

Scrums are the best bit.  When I was playing in my youth, getting the opposing scrum on roller skates was the highlight of the game.  I think the forwards cared more about that than winning the game.

Whatever they do has to work at all levels of the game.

I played at tighthead and then later backrow. I agree with this. Back in the days when No2 was actually a hooker and not a third prop, and had to work for a living!

sev112

Scrums only work as an integral part of rugby if and when the two sides are equal to start with.
Then it’s a good watch and contributes to the game

if there is a mismatch, then the stronger side can just drop the ball whenever they want, win a penalty in the scrum ad infinitum, as SAf did very well last week.

at that point it is of little benefit to the game of rugby

fretmeister

sev112 said:

Scrums only work as an integral part of rugby if and when the two sides are equal to start with.
Then it’s a good watch and contributes to the game

if there is a mismatch, then the stronger side can just drop the ball whenever they want, win a penalty in the scrum ad infinitum, as SAf did very well last week.

at that point it is of little benefit to the game of rugby

That's like complaining when a taller basketball team beats a shorter one.

They all get to make the selections they want, and develop the players they want.

barnstorm

crunchman said:

digitalscream said:

crunchman said:

Scrums are the best bit.  When I was playing in my youth, getting the opposing scrum on roller skates was the highlight of the game.  I think the forwards cared more about that than winning the game.

Whatever they do has to work at all levels of the game.

But how often does that really happen? Unless there's a massive mismatch between the teams, it's incredibly rare. As a finger-in-the-air guess, I'd say at least 95% of scrums are completely uneventful (thanks to the crooked feeds that are just part of the game now), reset or end in a penalty.

A directive to the refs could fix the crooked feeds overnight.

But there seem to be plenty who feel it's too risky now to encourage an old-fashioned strike for the ball from a straight feed.

Totally maddening to watch the ball going in crooked again and again, but if the alternative is endless collapses/resets and more injuries resulting from unstable scrums, I understand why the lawmakers (who always prefer to pretend for as long as possible that there's no problem!) have decided the solution is to just turn a blind eye.

crunchman

barnstorm said:

crunchman said:

digitalscream said:

crunchman said:

Scrums are the best bit.  When I was playing in my youth, getting the opposing scrum on roller skates was the highlight of the game.  I think the forwards cared more about that than winning the game.

Whatever they do has to work at all levels of the game.

But how often does that really happen? Unless there's a massive mismatch between the teams, it's incredibly rare. As a finger-in-the-air guess, I'd say at least 95% of scrums are completely uneventful (thanks to the crooked feeds that are just part of the game now), reset or end in a penalty.

A directive to the refs could fix the crooked feeds overnight.

But there seem to be plenty who feel it's too risky now to encourage an old-fashioned strike for the ball from a straight feed.

Totally maddening to watch the ball going in crooked again and again, but if the alternative is endless collapses/resets and more injuries resulting from unstable scrums, I understand why the lawmakers (who always prefer to pretend for as long as possible that there's no problem!) have decided the solution is to just turn a blind eye.

No sport is risk free.  You can have head clash in football.  You can get your face rearranged by a cricket ball (see Mike Gatting and Malcolm Marshall).  You can fall off a bike.  There was a guy I was at school with who died in a climbing accident.

The lawmakers just have to accept that.  It's a physical contact sport.  The scrum is an integral part of the game, and if you take that away, you are well on your way to Rugby League, which is one of the most boring sports on Earth.

sev112

fretmeister said:

sev112 said:

Scrums only work as an integral part of rugby if and when the two sides are equal to start with.
Then it’s a good watch and contributes to the game

if there is a mismatch, then the stronger side can just drop the ball whenever they want, win a penalty in the scrum ad infinitum, as SAf did very well last week.

at that point it is of little benefit to the game of rugby

That's like complaining when a taller basketball team beats a shorter one.

They all get to make the selections they want, and develop the players they want.

Actually it’s like netball where they have a pair of Goal Shooters/Attack,  it invalidates the game.  

But you don’t get to make the selections you want , you play with what you have.  Anyway rulesmakers have been tinkering with the rules for decades to change dominance in games.  

louis_LLM

@Gassage really enjoyed the article with Brits, great stuff!

On the topic of scrums, i played at the weekend and our scrum had the opponents in bother all game, could've had 7 or 8 easy penalties in their 22, but we had the strangest referee in existence who, despite our scrum pushing them back at a rate of knots, was telling me to 'use it' which led to some really confusing discussions between our captain and the ref. In my 20-odd years of playing scrum-half, i've never been told to use the ball during a dominant scrum... 

Closest i've been to being sin-binned for dissent in my career. 

rsvmark

crunchman said:

There is something called risk compensation.  If you feel safe, you will do more risky things, and you are more likely to stick your head somewhere you shouldn't.  The extreme is the NFL, where players routinely lead with their heads in ways that no rugby player would ever do.  There was a linebacker named Ryan Shazier who ended his career by "tackling" someone head first.  He injured his spine, and it was months before he could even walk again.

Wiz

when I coached minis and juniors the addition of scrum caps and body armour changed good players into risk seeking ones who got injured because they thought they were invincible and stopped applying what we taught them. And got hurt. Then the addition of armour and scrum caps gave sufficient confidence to other players to apply the correct technique and become tackle monsters, my son included. We often spoke to parents about the pros and cons but it depended on the player. If they did what we taught them, they rarely got hurt

sev112

louis_LLM said:

@Gassage really enjoyed the article with Brits, great stuff!

On the topic of scrums, i played at the weekend and our scrum had the opponents in bother all game, could've had 7 or 8 easy penalties in their 22, but we had the strangest referee in existence who, despite our scrum pushing them back at a rate of knots, was telling me to 'use it' which led to some really confusing discussions between our captain and the ref. In my 20-odd years of playing scrum-half, i've never been told to use the ball during a dominant scrum... 

Closest i've been to being sin-binned for dissent in my career. 

But that’s happened a lot in the WC and even before.  refs get fed up too

Dr_Necessiter

rsvmark said:

crunchman said:

There is something called risk compensation.  If you feel safe, you will do more risky things, and you are more likely to stick your head somewhere you shouldn't.  The extreme is the NFL, where players routinely lead with their heads in ways that no rugby player would ever do.  There was a linebacker named Ryan Shazier who ended his career by "tackling" someone head first.  He injured his spine, and it was months before he could even walk again.

Wiz

when I coached minis and juniors the addition of scrum caps and body armour changed good players into risk seeking ones who got injured because they thought they were invincible and stopped applying what we taught them. And got hurt. Then the addition of armour and scrum caps gave sufficient confidence to other players to apply the correct technique and become tackle monsters, my son included. We often spoke to parents about the pros and cons but it depended on the player. If they did what we taught them, they rarely got hurt

I hadn't considered this angle, wisdom duly awarded.

guitars4you

Not sure I can even be bothered to watch tonight - Hate the idea of such a game - Players are knackered, both physically and mentally and just need + want to go home - Totally pointless match

crunchman

guitars4you said:

Not sure I can even be bothered to watch tonight - Hate the idea of such a game - Players are knackered, both physically and mentally and just need + want to go home - Totally pointless match

I forgot it was even on.

There is very little point to it.  Arundell and Theo Dan are getting starts, so it will be good experience for them.  Not sure Dan is the long term option though in the modern game at 5'10".

p90fool

Does it affect world rankings?

Gassage

sev112 said:

Scrums only work as an integral part of rugby if and when the two sides are equal to start with.
Then it’s a good watch and contributes to the game

if there is a mismatch, then the stronger side can just drop the ball whenever they want, win a penalty in the scrum ad infinitum, as SAf did very well last week.

at that point it is of little benefit to the game of rugby

You may as well argue that if one team has faster players then it's unfair.

So what? The game is designed to reward variety of people, shapes, abilities and tactics.

Gassage

crunchman said:

guitars4you said:

Not sure I can even be bothered to watch tonight - Hate the idea of such a game - Players are knackered, both physically and mentally and just need + want to go home - Totally pointless match

I forgot it was even on.

There is very little point to it.  Arundell and Theo Dan are getting starts, so it will be good experience for them.  Not sure Dan is the long term option though in the modern game at 5'10".

Bongi is 5'8"
Jinx is 5'10"
Montoya 5'11"
Marchand 5'11"

crunchman

It depends who is playing at prop, but if you have a 6'3" tighthead like Dan Cole, then a hooker who is 5" shorter probably isn't going to help wih getting a good bind at scrum time.

Gassage

Re player/children safety, I get so so bored of this whole over protective society to kids.

Guess what- you will die and you will get hurt - and the sooner people accept that the more they can enjoy doing things.

Personally I'd rather handbrake turn through the pearly gates with smoke pouring off my wheels and the engine on fire than stick to speed limits.

Go and be brutal, go and dominate, go and be physical. If you do all of that the likelihood is you'll win all of your collisions and not get hurt.

MagicPigDetective

Finishing 3rd in the World Cup is prestigious for most… England really should value the importance of this game. Sulking will achieve nothing. England players’ ungracious reaction after losing the 2019 final still rankles with many.