The Rugby Union Thread

Blaendulais

Gassage said:

Re player/children safety, I get so so bored of this whole over protective society to kids.

Guess what- you will die and you will get hurt - and the sooner people accept that the more they can enjoy doing things.

Personally I'd rather handbrake turn through the pearly gates with smoke pouring off my wheels and the engine on fire than stick to speed limits.

Go and be brutal, go and dominate, go and be physical. If you do all of that the likelihood is you'll win all of your collisions and not get hurt.

I agree to a point...but i wonder how many handbrake turns Alix Popham has done...or can remember...recently

rsvmark

Gassage said:

Re player/children safety, I get so so bored of this whole over protective society to kids.

Guess what- you will die and you will get hurt - and the sooner people accept that the more they can enjoy doing things.

Personally I'd rather handbrake turn through the pearly gates with smoke pouring off my wheels and the engine on fire than stick to speed limits.

Go and be brutal, go and dominate, go and be physical. If you do all of that the likelihood is you'll win all of your collisions and not get hurt.

While you might be bored of it, my job as a coach was to help the little darlings have as much fun as possible every Sunday morning. As they progressed through the age groups, the competitive instinct kicks in and the camaraderie grows with their team mates. Remember, they are not always mates outside of the club and likely go to different schools. A boot in the face when you are 6, cold, wet, and not relishing tacking the biggest unit on the opposition is a tough ask of any kid. 

The second job, which got increasingly important even in my day as a coach, was allaying parental fears. Like it or not, parents want their kids to be safe. It’s part of the non written parents job description. My lad went to the England U16 camp with the academies and I got involved in the parents group. Guess what, everyone in that group wanted their kid to be safe, get an education, and enjoy the rugby. In that order. Well, all except Will Joseph’s dad who was on another planet compared to all the other mums and dads.

i honestly don’t know the figures but if player participation is dropping at club level, then grass root minis and juniors has to be answer. But if has to be safe otherwise mums and dads will take executive decisions and vote with their feet.

That said, I am not having a downer on the physical aspect of the game. Coached well, with a solid set of values, you turn out fine human beings first, with respect, humility (well sometimes) and nice people on the whole.

guitars4you

Gassage said:

sev112 said:

Scrums only work as an integral part of rugby if and when the two sides are equal to start with.
Then it’s a good watch and contributes to the game

if there is a mismatch, then the stronger side can just drop the ball whenever they want, win a penalty in the scrum ad infinitum, as SAf did very well last week.

at that point it is of little benefit to the game of rugby

You may as well argue that if one team has faster players then it's unfair.

So what? The game is designed to reward variety of people, shapes, abilities and tactics.

I think that is one of the games greatest assets - But the scrum reset and reset and reset, whilst the clock is still ticking, becomes a mighty bore - The overall lack of ball in play is an issue IMO - In short any re-start is slow - Kick to touch, get the guys there, chat about tactics, then actually line up and take the throw  - 90 seconds often between the initial kick to touch and the throw - Then a penalty might instantly come from the line out - More re-start and re-set - I bet some centres and wingers can go 5-10 mins without touching the ball and/or any involvement 

barnstorm

rsvmark said:

Gassage said:

Re player/children safety, I get so so bored of this whole over protective society to kids.

Guess what- you will die and you will get hurt - and the sooner people accept that the more they can enjoy doing things.

Personally I'd rather handbrake turn through the pearly gates with smoke pouring off my wheels and the engine on fire than stick to speed limits.

Go and be brutal, go and dominate, go and be physical. If you do all of that the likelihood is you'll win all of your collisions and not get hurt.

While you might be bored of it, my job as a coach was to help the little darlings have as much fun as possible every Sunday morning. As they progressed through the age groups, the competitive instinct kicks in and the camaraderie grows with their team mates. Remember, they are not always mates outside of the club and likely go to different schools. A boot in the face when you are 6, cold, wet, and not relishing tacking the biggest unit on the opposition is a tough ask of any kid. 

The second job, which got increasingly important even in my day as a coach, was allaying parental fears. Like it or not, parents want their kids to be safe. It’s part of the non written parents job description. My lad went to the England U16 camp with the academies and I got involved in the parents group. Guess what, everyone in that group wanted their kid to be safe, get an education, and enjoy the rugby. In that order. Well, all except Will Joseph’s dad who was on another planet compared to all the other mums and dads.

i honestly don’t know the figures but if player participation is dropping at club level, then grass root minis and juniors has to be answer. But if has to be safe otherwise mums and dads will take executive decisions and vote with their feet.

That said, I am not having a downer on the physical aspect of the game. Coached well, with a solid set of values, you turn out fine human beings first, with respect, humility (well sometimes) and nice people on the whole.

I, too, prefer the timeline where rugby doesn't become a pariah sport.

sev112

Gassage said:

sev112 said:

Scrums only work as an integral part of rugby if and when the two sides are equal to start with.
Then it’s a good watch and contributes to the game

if there is a mismatch, then the stronger side can just drop the ball whenever they want, win a penalty in the scrum ad infinitum, as SAf did very well last week.

at that point it is of little benefit to the game of rugby

You may as well argue that if one team has faster players then it's unfair.

So what? The game is designed to reward variety of people, shapes, abilities and tactics.

Yeah I know it’s a not a perfect argument, but you’d get a penalty (or anything) for being faster, because you can always tackle them.  A much stronger scrum seems to get a penalty every scrum.  

crunchman

sev112 said:

Gassage said:

sev112 said:

Scrums only work as an integral part of rugby if and when the two sides are equal to start with.
Then it’s a good watch and contributes to the game

if there is a mismatch, then the stronger side can just drop the ball whenever they want, win a penalty in the scrum ad infinitum, as SAf did very well last week.

at that point it is of little benefit to the game of rugby

You may as well argue that if one team has faster players then it's unfair.

So what? The game is designed to reward variety of people, shapes, abilities and tactics.

Yeah I know it’s a not a perfect argument, but you’d get a penalty (or anything) for being faster, because you can always tackle them.  A much stronger scrum seems to get a penalty every scrum.  

It will get a penalty if the weaker scrum goes down.  No penalty if they just go backwards.  They go down though and hope for a reset rather than go backwards and get shoved off the ball.

elstoof

guitars4you said:

Not sure I can even be bothered to watch tonight - Hate the idea of such a game - Players are knackered, both physically and mentally and just need + want to go home - Totally pointless match

Not too pointless, the capped England players will pocket another £23k each. Not sure what Argentina get though

TJT1979

I actually think today’s match is more important than many think, psychologically. If Eng lose, the feeling of building momentum would take quite a hit. And Argentina are going to play a lot better than in our first match. A strong statement win for Eng would cement the progress we’ve made*. 

Having said that, I’d still prefer the match wasn’t played at all. 

* I say “we” but in actual fact I wasn’t even invited to play.  

TJT1979

I wish Borthwick had selected all the players who’ve announced their retirement. Lawes in particular. 

crunchman

TJT1979 said:

I wish Borthwick had selected all the players who’ve announced their retirement. Lawes in particular. 

Did they want to play?

Blaendulais

crunchman said:

TJT1979 said:

I wish Borthwick had selected all the players who’ve announced their retirement. Lawes in particular. 

Did they want to play?

good question 

Gassage

TJT1979 said:

I wish Borthwick had selected all the players who’ve announced their retirement. Lawes in particular. 

Lawes injured.

Gassage

rsvmark said:

Gassage said:

Re player/children safety, I get so so bored of this whole over protective society to kids.

Guess what- you will die and you will get hurt - and the sooner people accept that the more they can enjoy doing things.

Personally I'd rather handbrake turn through the pearly gates with smoke pouring off my wheels and the engine on fire than stick to speed limits.

Go and be brutal, go and dominate, go and be physical. If you do all of that the likelihood is you'll win all of your collisions and not get hurt.

While you might be bored of it, my job as a coach was to help the little darlings have as much fun as possible every Sunday morning. As they progressed through the age groups, the competitive instinct kicks in and the camaraderie grows with their team mates. Remember, they are not always mates outside of the club and likely go to different schools. A boot in the face when you are 6, cold, wet, and not relishing tacking the biggest unit on the opposition is a tough ask of any kid. 

The second job, which got increasingly important even in my day as a coach, was allaying parental fears. Like it or not, parents want their kids to be safe. It’s part of the non written parents job description. My lad went to the England U16 camp with the academies and I got involved in the parents group. Guess what, everyone in that group wanted their kid to be safe, get an education, and enjoy the rugby. In that order. Well, all except Will Joseph’s dad who was on another planet compared to all the other mums and dads.

i honestly don’t know the figures but if player participation is dropping at club level, then grass root minis and juniors has to be answer. But if has to be safe otherwise mums and dads will take executive decisions and vote with their feet.

That said, I am not having a downer on the physical aspect of the game. Coached well, with a solid set of values, you turn out fine human beings first, with respect, humility (well sometimes) and nice people on the whole.

It’s interesting that before people tried overly sanitising the game, participation was higher.

It’s quite interesting the hierarchy of priorities you list- Saffer or NZ parents would perhaps have a different hierarchy and a slightly more liberating approach.

Gassage

crunchman said:

It depends who is playing at prop, but if you have a 6'3" tighthead like Dan Cole, then a hooker who is 5" shorter probably isn't going to help wih getting a good bind at scrum time.

Like Malherbe and Bongi?
Atonio and Marchand?
Lomax and Coles?

TJT1979

Tough match. I actually thought Arg olayed the better rugby. Eng had a better start which ultimately won the match. 

Why was the forward pass in the lead-up to Argentina’s first try not reviewed? Here on Arg TV there wasn’t a clear explanation. 

sev112

Remember that ARG missed that penalty towards the end.  One understands why coaches pick Farrell.

Schnozz

Need to take a step back to appreciate that for 2023, England have surpassed Wales in the men's six nations, women's six nations, and the rugby world cup.

"Be turgid" seems to work better than "spread 'em cheeks".

digitalscream

Schnozz said:

Need to take a step back to appreciate that for 2023, England have surpassed Wales in the men's six nations, women's six nations, and the rugby world cup.

"Be turgid" seems to work better than "spread 'em cheeks".

True. Hardly a great advert for the game, though, at a time when the domestic game desperately needs to attract more fans.

crunchman

digitalscream said:

Schnozz said:

Need to take a step back to appreciate that for 2023, England have surpassed Wales in the men's six nations, women's six nations, and the rugby world cup.

"Be turgid" seems to work better than "spread 'em cheeks".

True. Hardly a great advert for the game, though, at a time when the domestic game desperately needs to attract more fans.

Again, same solution - limit the number of subs.  There would be a lot more space later in the game as the forwards tire.

Gassage

A record-breaking night for Marcos Kremer, one of the players of the tournament who has now made more tackles (92) in a single Rugby World Cup than any other player, surpassing Taulupe Faletau’s 83 in 2011