That petition...

Chalky

Bucket;1126967" said:

Chalky said:

@Bucket said "we've just6 had our future in this country cast into deep uncertainty".



But you only have deep uncertainty because of your lack of life experience. To those of us who were working when we voted to go in, we have stronger certainty in the future.





I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but surely you realise the world has changed a hell of a lot since then. 

How can you be certain of anything?

Precisely! Because the world has changed a hell of a lot since then, the old guys like me on this forum have lived through that 40 years of change. So we've known "deep uncertainty" many times, learned from it, got through it, and the world became a better place. Uncertainty is much less of a problem for us.

Chalky

littlegreenman;1126976" said:

Chalky said:

@Bucket said "we've just had our future in this country cast into deep uncertainty".



But you only have deep uncertainty because of your lack of life experience. To those of us who have crystal balls, we have stronger certainty in the future.





FTFY



@Chalky, you really do come across as a bit of a condescending ass at times. Connor's views are just as valid as anyone elses considering "no-one" has a clue about what's going to happen in the next few years/ decades.

But lots of people do have a clue. Not because they are arrogant or smart but because they understand how these things work. Think of the other upheavals over the last 40 years - sure, we didn't have crystal balls but the situation had to be dealt with and problems solved. And largely they were.

scrumhalf

Chalky said:

Uncertainty is much less of a problem for us.

I think that one of the reasons for this is that when we were living through that uncertainty we didn't have countless telly and radio stations, not to mention social media (where knowledge and facts are scarce), hammering inexpertise and talking heads into our minds at every single opportunity.

littlegreenman

Chalky said:

littlegreenman;1126976" said:

Chalky said:

@Bucket said "we've just had our future in this country cast into deep uncertainty".



But you only have deep uncertainty because of your lack of life experience. To those of us who have crystal balls, we have stronger certainty in the future.





FTFY



@Chalky, you really do come across as a bit of a condescending ass at times. Connor's views are just as valid as anyone elses considering "no-one" has a clue about what's going to happen in the next few years/ decades.

But lots of people do have a clue. Not because they are arrogant or smart but because they understand how these things work. Think of the other upheavals over the last 40 years - sure, we didn't have crystal balls but the situation had to be dealt with and problems solved. And largely they were.

Now that's a more balanced response, thank you.

There's still deep uncertainty all around though, and not just because of people's age as you alluded to (life experience does not equate to wisdom, just that you're older). I'm no spring chicken and I can't currently see where we're headed, and neither can our current government or the opposition.

Where strong leadership is required, all we have is fragmentation, both parties in disarray and no-one stepping up to take control.

Chalky

littlegreenman;1127125" said:

Chalky said:

littlegreenman;1126976" said:Chalky said:



@Bucket said "we've just had our future in this country cast into deep uncertainty".







But you only have deep uncertainty because of your lack of life experience. To those of us who have crystal balls, we have stronger certainty in the future.











FTFY







@Chalky, you really do come across as a bit of a condescending ass at times. Connor's views are just as valid as anyone elses considering "no-one" has a clue about what's going to happen in the next few years/ decades.

But lots of people do have a clue. Not because they are arrogant or smart but because they understand how these things work. Think of the other upheavals over the last 40 years - sure, we didn't have crystal balls but the situation had to be dealt with and problems solved. And largely they were.





Now that's a more balanced response, thank you.



There's still deep uncertainty all around though, and not just because of people's age as you alluded to (life experience does not equate to wisdom, just that you're older). I'm no spring chicken and I can't currently see where we're headed, and neither can our current government or the opposition.



Where strong leadership is required, all we have is fragmentation, both parties in disarray and no-one stepping up to take control.

As I've said, you can't have a new leader until the Tory party picks one. At the moment, Boris, Gove and May are canvassing support to see who is likely to win. They are also sounding out candidates for the Cabinet (depending on who wins). They could not do this before the referendum because that was the agreement.

chrispy108

Bucket said:

And can we lay off demonising the younger population in this thread for just a minute?

I'm 21 years old. All I've ever known, and all my friends have ever known, is living in the EU. 

Yes, but that doesn't mean that everything good in your life is because of the EU.

I cannot see how people are so obsessed with the idea that we need the EU. What functions does the EU perform that we can't either do without or do ourselves?

lloyd

Such a snowflake @bucket fucking hell. The idea that you're going to be on the earth longer so you should get your way or that the younger generation somehow has more invested in this is fucking disgusting to be honest.

capo4th

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ

Does anyone think this will not go ahead? 

Bucket

lloyd said:

or that the younger generation somehow has more invested in this.

Do we not?

lloyd

Bucket said:

lloyd said:

or that the younger generation somehow has more invested in this.

Do we not?

Fucking absolutely not. More time perhaps, but that's not how you measure investment in these things. Is your next 50-60 years on this planet more important than my 40-50, or my Dad's 20-30? Because that is essentially what you're saying, you're wrong on this.

lloyd

Bucket said:

lloyd said:

or that the younger generation somehow has more invested in this.

Do we not?

That I'm arguing my case as eloquently as I can, while you're immediately resorting to swearing and making it personal, speaks volumes.

I've seen some of your pissy rants in other threads so get off the high horse. And, speaks volumes about what? My point stands whether or not I swore (I'd say 50% of my posts have swears in them so get a grip) or called you a snowflake.

Bucket

lloyd said:

Fucking absolutely not. More time perhaps, but that's not how you measure investment in these things. Is your next 50-60 years on this planet more important than my 40-50, or my Dad's 20-30? Because that is essentially what you're saying, you're wrong on this.

That's what I mean. More time.

At no point have I even implied that anyone's time is any less valuable than anyone else's!

Bucket

lloyd said:

I've seen some of your pissy rants in other threads so get off the high horse.

I accept that, but I was angry and had had a lot less time to think about it. I do regret some of the things I said in other threads.

Have edited.

octatonic

lloyd

Bucket said:

lloyd said:

Fucking absolutely not. More time perhaps, but that's not how you measure investment in these things. Is your next 50-60 years on this planet more important than my 40-50, or my Dad's 20-30? Because that is essentially what you're saying, you're wrong on this.

That's what I mean. More time.

At no point have I even implied that anyone's time is any less valuable than anyone else's!

Saying that you have more invested in it implies, by its very wording that your time is more valuable. If you want to say that the youngsters will have to deal with the consequences for longer then that's fine, it's a fact, but it's terrible logic as they will also have more time to deal with the consequences and turn it into a positive. Do you not see that? The whole younger generation argument that "you've fucked our future" doesn't wash with me and you going along with it makes you sound like the rest of the entitled millennials sqwaking about it. I voted remain BTW and think we've made a big mistake but there we go.

chrispy108

lloyd said:

If you want to say that the youngsters will have to deal with the consequences for longer then that's fine, it's a fact, but it's terrible logic as they will also have more time to deal with the consequences and turn it into a positive. Do you not see that? 

Exactly that @lloyd. The younger generation should be using this as an opportunity to grab the bull by the horns and make the world around them into what they want it to be.

Or, they could just whinge about it on Facebook to their friends who think the same as them, and shout "racist" at anyone who disagrees.

@Bucket - You've ignored my question - what does the EU do that we can't do ourselves?

Bucket

lloyd said:

Saying that you have more invested in it implies, by its very wording that your time is more valuable. If you want to say that the youngsters will have to deal with the consequences for longer then that's fine, it's a fact, but it's terrible logic as they will also have more time to deal with the consequences and turn it into a positive. Do you not see that? The whole younger generation argument that "you've fucked our future" doesn't wash with me and you going along with it makes you sound like the rest of the entitled millennials sqwaking about it. I voted remain BTW and think we've made a big mistake but there we go.

I didn't actually use those words though. I just re-read my post and didn't spot the word "invested" even once until you brought it up.

What I actually said is far more along the lines of what you wrote after that, which is indeed a fact. But I think my logic isn't as terrible as you're suggesting because everything I've heard so far suggests that we'll have a hell of a job getting any positives out of leaving the EU. As you say, we have made a big mistake.

I try to be a little more nuanced than just squawking "you've fucked us over", and I haven't sunk to slandering Leave voters as racist or xenophobic, but the fact is, the vast majority of us didn't vote for this, but we're now stuck with it and the consequences for all of us will likely be severe. And the majority of people who DID vote for it won't have to suffer those consequences for anywhere near as long as we will. It was a democratic process so I hesitate to call it an injustice, but I'm sure you can imagine that it is very upsetting for the vast majority of my generation, and while many of us have resorted to vulgarity and acted in a ridiculous, embarrassing and childish way, I think we have a right to be angry about this.

That doesn't change the fact that we really should stop whining and work out how to make this shower of shit work out in the least rubbish way possible. That's if it happens at all... I'm increasingly optimistic that the government will realise the true enormity of the task, and the likelihood of catastrophic consequences, and bottle it.

Bucket

chrispy108 said:

@Bucket - You've ignored my question - what does the EU do that we can't do ourselves?

Sorry - well, the freedom of movement and access to the European market is a big one for me. That won't happen if we leave, or if it does it'll be after negotiations that basically undermine the point the leave voters wanted to make.

The effect it will have on our industry and economy - the Nissan plant up north for example. That's their entry point into the whole of Europe, and if we're not in Europe what possible incentive have they not to up sticks and go to France, for the sake of argument? Thousands of jobs gone straight away. We'll be much smaller players on the world stage if we're out of the EU, in trading terms.

We live in a WORLD, not just a country. Everyone, everywhere is more connected now than ever before. It seems like a step backwards to isolate ourselves from the rest of Europe and try to put up walls where there needn't be any.

lloyd

No you didn't use the word invested, but you clearly think you do have more invested in it. This is the problem, it's selfish to think that it's worse for you because you've more time to live with it-it's total bollocks for another thing too. Griping about how most of you didn't vote for it is pointless too and smacks of sour grapes. While I'd say you're not the worst whinged I've read over the last few days, you come into the millennial squaker category (for me) because of a lot of what's in your post-hoping the gov bottle it, assuming you mean not leave-come on the country has spoken and you want to go against it, that's entitlement at its height. You hesitate to call it an injustice, but again, that's clearly what you think this is. The whole remain backers think they have all the answers and they know what's going to happen and that they know best but reality is, that no-one, including two fuckwits arguing on a guitar forum have any clue as to what's gonna happen in the next 5 years. I'm not sure why your generation has any more reason than the next mans to feel "angry" at a result, or even if anybody should feel angry at it, dissapointing yes, but anger is a weird one, it's like you think the oldies have fucked you over on purpose out of spite, whereas all that's happened is that people have been asked a simple yes/no question on a complicated matter and answered in the way they think is best for them, their families and the country.

octatonic

chrispy108 said:

@Bucket - You've ignored my question - what does the EU do that we can't do ourselves?

I'll have a stab at this if you don't mind.

Let's look at regulation.

Triumph make motorcycles that get sold in the UK and the EU.

There are a whole bunch of laws that govern emissions, we had a new bunch of regulations for Euro 4 come in Jan 2016 and the rest coming in 2017.

Then in 2020 we have Euro 5 coming.

You can read about it here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32013R0168

Regulations are essentially an agreement about what manufacturers need to adhere to.

This isn't something that happens TO us, but rather something that we have (or had) as say in.

The UK, along with Germany and France are (were) the main agenda setters- not much happens unless the Big 3 agree.

Post Brexit the UK will no longer have a say on how emissions regulations are agreed.

If Triumph wish to sell motorcycles into Europe though they will have to build motorcycles that adhere to these regulations but the UK will have no input.

When the new regulation comes along we might have different standards between the EU, so Triumph may have to make significant changes to their designs to be sold in the UK versus Europe.

We won't know, but it is likely that at some stage this will happen.

This impacts their profit margin as manufacturing is less efficient.

Another topic: EU drugs regulator.

There is a drugs regulator for the EU in the UK called the European Medicines Agency.

They are in Canary Wharf- they employ around 5000 people (I think).

Their remit is similar to the FDA in the US- they regulate the approval of drugs into the EU.

When the UK exits it is almost certain that they will be moving- it makes no sense at all to have the European regulator for drugs in a country that isn't in the EU, that doesn't have the same laws.

It will probably move to Paris.

Quite a few people who work for the EMA are themselves European.

The UK will have to create its own regulator for new medicines.

Someone will have to do that- it hasn't been done for decades and it is a massive unknown as to what will have to happen.

Is it impossible?

No, not at all.

But it will take time and money.

Talking to friends who work in the EMA the timing has been given as 'quite a few years' and the money is likely to go into the tens or hundreds of millions.

So, this is just two areas, two tiny, tiny areas.

Brexit will have a similar impact on virtually every single aspect of trade.

Trade deals are fairly easy in comparison to agreeing regulatory standards.

One more thing.

It will not be possible for all of this work to be done as acts of parliament.

Parliament won't have time to do this stuff in addition to all the other stuff.

So, large blocks of regulation and legislation will be given to the civil service and regulations bodies to ratify.

So, essentially the UK has traded a scenario where 'unelected bureaucrats in Brussels make all the decisions' to one where 'unelected bureaucrats in London get to set all the laws'.