That petition...

lloyd

On iPad so apologise for the wall of text.

Garthy

Bucket said:

lloyd said:

Saying that you have more invested in it implies, by its very wording that your time is more valuable. If you want to say that the youngsters will have to deal with the consequences for longer then that's fine, it's a fact, but it's terrible logic as they will also have more time to deal with the consequences and turn it into a positive. Do you not see that? The whole younger generation argument that "you've fucked our future" doesn't wash with me and you going along with it makes you sound like the rest of the entitled millennials sqwaking about it. I voted remain BTW and think we've made a big mistake but there we go.

I didn't actually use those words though. I just re-read my post and didn't spot the word "invested" even once until you brought it up.

What I actually said is far more along the lines of what you wrote after that, which is indeed a fact. But I think my logic isn't as terrible as you're suggesting because everything I've heard so far suggests that we'll have a hell of a job getting any positives out of leaving the EU. As you say, we have made a big mistake.

I try to be a little more nuanced than just squawking "you've fucked us over" but the fact is, the vast majority of us didn't vote for this, but we're now stuck with it and the consequences for all of us will likely be severe. And the majority of people who DID vote for it won't have to suffer those consequences for anywhere near as long as we will. It was a democratic process so I hesitate to call it an injustice, but I'm sure you can imagine that it is very upsetting for the vast majority of my generation, and while many of us have resorted to vulgarity and acted in a ridiculous, embarrassing and childish way, I think we have a right to be angry about this.

That doesn't change the fact that we really should stop whining and work out how to make this shower of shit work out in the least rubbish way possible. That's if it happens at all... I'm increasingly optimistic that the government will realise the true enormity of the task, and the likelihood of catastrophic consequences, and bottle it.

This is hysterical nonsense. That you are 21 means that hopefully you have another 70 years left and even if Thursday hadn't happened there is no way you could have predicted what will or would have happened to this country over the course of your expected life time. It surely stands to reason that the next ten years will be the hardest for the UK and will improve so both you, me, Lloyd and Chalky should experience it together, barring the obvious. My nan is 86, she will still live through the fall out of this vote, so will my son who is 9.

In a business is the CEO usually an oldie who will retire soon, or 18 with another 50 years left until retirement, so to follow your arguement would have to suffer the consequences of any decisions for longer?

Bucket

lloyd said:

No you didn't use the word invested, but you clearly think you do have more invested in it. This is the problem, it's selfish to think that it's worse for you because you've more time to live with it-it's total bollocks for another thing too. Griping about how most of you didn't vote for it is pointless too and smacks of sour grapes. While I'd say you're not the worst whinged I've read over the last few days, you come into the millennial squaker category (for me) because of a lot of what's in your post-hoping the gov bottle it, assuming you mean not leave-come on the country has spoken and you want to go against it, that's entitlement at its height. You hesitate to call it an injustice, but again, that's clearly what you think this is. The whole remain backers think they have all the answers and they know what's going to happen and that they know best but reality is, that no-one, including two fuckwits arguing on a guitar forum have any clue as to what's gonna happen in the next 5 years. I'm not sure why your generation has any more reason than the next mans to feel "angry" at a result, or even if anybody should feel angry at it, dissapointing yes, but anger is a weird one, it's like you think the oldies have fucked you over on purpose out of spite, whereas all that's happened is that people have been asked a simple yes/no question on a complicated matter and answered in the way they think is best for them, their families and the country.

I dare say the Remain campaign had more of an idea than Leave though, based on the fact that we'd been on that path for 40-odd years already.

And fine, try to tell me what I think if you like but I haven't, and wouldn't have, stated that my remaining time on this planet is any more or less important than anyone else's. I'm wondering if you're just playing devil's advocate or whether you genuinely can't see my point that we've a right to feel disappointed that we've been shoehorned, against the will of most of us, into this.

And @Garthy I tried my absolute best not to make it hysterical, honest. I read it back and thought it seemed pretty level-headed by my standards, but oh well. No you can't predict what will happen in the course of our lifetimes but come on, are you denying that an exit vote throws a spanner in the works?

chrispy108

Bucket said:

We live in a WORLD, not just a country. Everyone, everywhere is more connected now than ever before. It seems like a step backwards to isolate ourselves from the rest of Europe and try to put up walls where there needn't be any.

Exactly, we live in a WORLD, not just a gang of 28 countries that make up half of one continent. I don't understand how being in that gang makes being in the WORLD any easier.

@octatonic Thanks for your post, and yes, I understand it creates lots of work, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I see having control over our own regulations as a good thing, and it also gives us the option to not regulate against silly things (the fruit laws that got implemented and then overturned as one example).  We could also agree to pay for our share of the regulation that we want to be part of.

I can't see manufacturers (small/medium ones anyway) creating two versions, they'll just follow the strictest regulations, as happens often in the USA where California has stricter emission standards than the rest of the states.

lloyd

I think your stating that your generation has a right to feel angry/disappointed is strange, why not everyone who voted remain, or feel for us as a whole country, even those that voted out? It's weird to single out your generation, and when you do single out one group, you (even if it's not your intention) make the implication that that group is somehow more affected, more involved, more deserving of dissapointing or whatever, which plays into the whole thing about Millenials that everyone hates-snowflake, entitled etc.

Bucket

lloyd said:

I think your stating that your generation has a right to feel angry/disappointed is strange, why not everyone who voted remain, or feel for us as a whole country, even those that voted out? It's weird to single out your generation, and when you do single out one group, you (even if it's not your intention) make the implication that that group is somehow more affected, more involved, more deserving of dissapointing or whatever, which plays into the whole thing about Millenials that everyone hates-snowflake, entitled etc.

I never said anyone else didn't have the right! I singled out my generation because that's the situation I find myself in. I'm sure I'd post differently if I was 31, or 41. But as it is, I'm 21, and this is how me and a lot of other people my age feel about this.

All I was saying was that we will have to deal with the consequences for longer. That is a fact. I didn't say that we were more important, our time counted for more, or that everyone hates us. I'm not some paranoid Tumblrina, and it isn't often I really get out of my pram about a political issue like this, but rightly or wrongly it's got me riled up. 

For a whole variety of reasons, one being that comparatively few of us even voted.

koneguitarist

@Bucket what job do you do? I am an engineer working for a Finnish Crane company, contracted to a French Facilities company to work on a Italian owned helicopter site in Yeovil? How about you?

Drew_TNBD

Bucket said:

lloyd said:

I think your stating that your generation has a right to feel angry/disappointed is strange, why not everyone who voted remain, or feel for us as a whole country, even those that voted out? It's weird to single out your generation, and when you do single out one group, you (even if it's not your intention) make the implication that that group is somehow more affected, more involved, more deserving of dissapointing or whatever, which plays into the whole thing about Millenials that everyone hates-snowflake, entitled etc.

I never said anyone else didn't have the right!

All I was saying was that we will have to deal with the consequences for longer. That is a fact.

See Mr. C. This is where your logic falls down and you expose the reality of what you think.

You could die tomorrow, and therefore not face any consequences at all.

octatonic

koneguitarist said:

@Bucket what job do you do?

He's an exotic dancer.

Bucket

koneguitarist said:

@Bucket what job do you do?

I work in a shop on the weekends and am a music student the rest of the time.

EDIT: I fail to see why this is worthy of a lol. What is wrong with being in education and having a part-time job to support myself a little while I am doing that?

Bucket

Drew_fx said:

See Mr. C. This is where your logic falls down and you expose the reality of what you think.

You could die tomorrow, and therefore not face any consequences at all.

Of course I could, but I don't see how that's particularly relevant. Everyone else will still have to face those consequences.

Unless it's a meteorite strike, in which case I'd suggest Brexit suddenly becomes the least of our worries.

Drew_TNBD

Bucket said:

Drew_fx said:

See Mr. C. This is where your logic falls down and you expose the reality of what you think.

You could die tomorrow, and therefore not face any consequences at all.

Of course I could, but I don't see how that's relevant.

Because it applies to your entire generation. Fuck... we could find out that vaping kills you within 4 years, and that'd really fuck your generation!!

Bucket

Drew_fx said:

Because it applies to your entire generation. Fuck... we could find out that vaping kills you within 4 years, and that'd really fuck your generation!!

I'm safe though, which is obviously what matters

And I think I see what you mean, but assuming you mean any one of us could, that doesn't negate the effects on the whole of society.

equalsql

Regardless of whether it's right for us to leave or stay, Perhaps this will shock enough of the the young voters to actually get off their iPhones and arses and engage with politics and the real world.?

chrispy108

@Bucket Your us and them attitude and language are so divisive. I've pretty much stopped using Facebook and Twitter since Thursday due to exactly this. Remainers complain about the nasty right wing, but there is so much hatred coming from Remain at the moment.

You are absolutely saying that your generation are more important, however you want to word it, that is what you are saying.

By that logic, should we have only let babies under 1 vote? They'll deal with it for the longest after all.

koneguitarist

@Bucket, so you work part time in a shop and a student. 21 years old, not even working full time, what are you going to do when you graduate, be a musician? 

What is your goal in life, to be a musician, if so why didn't you just become a musician and save the tuition fees and get a regular job and pay taxes etc instead of telling everyone the older generation has ruined your world, when you ain't even started it yet!

Bucket

koneguitarist said:

What is your goal in life, to be a musician, if so why didn't you just become a musician and save the tuition fees and get a regular job and pay taxes etc instead of telling everyone the older generation has ruined your world, when you ain't even started it yet!

Because I wanted an education in it, and I have benefited from that enormously so far. I am grateful that I have the opportunity to do so.

octatonic

chrispy108 said:

Bucket said:

We live in a WORLD, not just a country. Everyone, everywhere is more connected now than ever before. It seems like a step backwards to isolate ourselves from the rest of Europe and try to put up walls where there needn't be any.

Exactly, we live in a WORLD, not just a gang of 28 countries that make up half of one continent. I don't understand how being in that gang makes being in the WORLD any easier.

@octatonic Thanks for your post, and yes, I understand it creates lots of work, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I see having control over our own regulations as a good thing, and it also gives us the option to not regulate against silly things (the fruit laws that got implemented and then overturned as one example).  We could also agree to pay for our share of the regulation that we want to be part of.

I can't see manufacturers (small/medium ones anyway) creating two versions, they'll just follow the strictest regulations, as happens often in the USA where California has stricter emission standards than the rest of the states.

You must not have much of an idea of the enormity of the task then.

We are talking about decades.

The UK will be paying for this for decades.

Regulatory folks are measuring these changes, as a best case scenario, in 3 parliaments- which is 15 years.

It isn't a matter of the strictest laws win out- you will find that one country does one thing and another country does another thing, so you have to make a product that does two things.

And if this is really all about setting 'our own regulations' how is having to build a product that adheres to the regulations of two entirely different countries actually setting 'our own regulations'?

It isn't.

What is likely to happen here is the UK, being a much, much smaller market for motorcycles than the rest of Europe, won't have its own regulations, they will likely just follow the Euro regulation, because manufacturers won't want to have to make two different products.

If this is the case then there will be no 'setting our own regulations'.

You haven't commented on the drugs regulation bit of my post.

Do you have any idea how much work that will be?

Drug regulation jobs are very well paid.

A drugs regulatory job at a pharma company can be a £100k pa job plus all the usual benefits.

Many people in this area of pharma are amongst the best paid because it is highly specialised- certainly better paid than the PM.

And again, the UK as a much smaller market than the EU will likely have to adopt something very close to (or exactly like) the EU regulations in order to buy from or sell drugs into the EU.

Let's take Botox, which I know quite a bit about.

Botox has recently become approved for chronic migraine (it isn't just a cosmetic product it has several clinical indications).

The approval of Botox would have gone through the EMA for this specific indication.

Say we were already in the post Brexit world and Botox was going through regulation for this clinical indication.

Under the old system we would just automatically adopt the EU rules for this drug.

In the new system we might have to wait for the EU to complete its regulatory process and then adopt that otherwise we would have to go through our own process, which costs the maker of Botox money.

This cost will then be passed onto the customer, which in this case will be the NHS (because it is a clinical indication, not a cosmetic use).

Drugs are relatively cheap here in Europe, compared to America.

There are many reasons for this but one reason is because regulatory process is relatively easy and is spread across multiple countries.

The UK standing alone becomes a much less attractive proposition for drug companies to go through approval processes.

There are dozens of countries where these sorts of products are never approved for certain clinical indications because there is no real financial benefit for drug companies to do the work.

lloyd

octatonic said:

chrispy108 said:

Bucket said:

We live in a WORLD, not just a country. Everyone, everywhere is more connected now than ever before. It seems like a step backwards to isolate ourselves from the rest of Europe and try to put up walls where there needn't be any.

Exactly, we live in a WORLD, not just a gang of 28 countries that make up half of one continent. I don't understand how being in that gang makes being in the WORLD any easier.

@octatonic Thanks for your post, and yes, I understand it creates lots of work, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I see having control over our own regulations as a good thing, and it also gives us the option to not regulate against silly things (the fruit laws that got implemented and then overturned as one example).  We could also agree to pay for our share of the regulation that we want to be part of.

I can't see manufacturers (small/medium ones anyway) creating two versions, they'll just follow the strictest regulations, as happens often in the USA where California has stricter emission standards than the rest of the states.

You must not have much of an idea of the enormity of the task then.

We are talking about decades.

The UK will be paying for this for decades.

Regulatory folks are measuring these changes, as a best case scenario, in 3 parliaments- which is 15 years.

It isn't a matter of the strictest laws win out- you will find that one country does one thing and another country does another thing, so you have to make a product that does two things.

And if this is really all about setting 'our own regulations' how is having to build a product that adheres to the regulations of two entirely different countries actually setting 'our own regulations'?

It isn't.

What is likely to happen here is the UK, being a much, much smaller market for motorcycles than the rest of Europe, won't have its own regulations, they will likely just follow the Euro regulation, because manufacturers won't want to have to make two different products.

If this is the case then there will be no 'setting our own regulations'.

You haven't commented on the drugs regulation bit of my post.

Do you have any idea how much work that will be?

Drug regulation jobs are very well paid.

A drugs regulatory job at a pharma company can be a £100k pa job plus all the usual benefits.

Many people in this area of pharma are amongst the best paid because it is highly specialised- certainly better paid than the PM.

And again, the UK as a much smaller market than the EU will likely have to adopt something very close to (or exactly like) the EU regulations in order to buy from or sell drugs into the EU.

Let's take Botox, which I know quite a bit about.

Botox has recently become approved for chronic migraine (it isn't just a cosmetic product it has several clinical indications).

The approval of Botox would have gone through the EMA for this specific indication.

Say we were already in the post Brexit world and Botox was going through regulation for this clinical indication.

Under the old system we would just automatically adopt the EU rules for this drug.

In the new system we might have to wait for the EU to complete its regulatory process and then adopt that otherwise we would have to go through our own process, which costs the maker of Botox money.

This cost will then be passed onto the customer, which in this case will be the NHS (because it is a clinical indication, not a cosmetic use).

Drugs are relatively cheap here in Europe, compared to America.

There are many reasons for this but one reason is because regulatory process is relatively easy and is spread across multiple countries.

The UK standing alone becomes a much less attractive proposition for drug companies to go through approval processes.

There are dozens of countries where these sorts of products are never approved for certain clinical indications because there is no real financial benefit for drug companies to do the work.

Didn't have you down as vain mate.

Drew_TNBD

lloyd;1127488" said:

octatonic said:



chrispy108 said:



Bucket said:We live in a WORLD, not just a country. Everyone, everywhere is more connected now than ever before. It seems like a step backwards to isolate ourselves from the rest of Europe and try to put up walls where there needn't be any.







Exactly, we live in a WORLD, not just a gang of 28 countries that make up half of one continent. I don't understand how being in that gang makes being in the WORLD any easier.

@octatonic Thanks for your post, and yes, I understand it creates lots of work, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I see having control over our own regulations as a good thing, and it also gives us the option to not regulate against silly things (the fruit laws that got implemented and then overturned as one example).  We could also agree to pay for our share of the regulation that we want to be part of.

I can't see manufacturers (small/medium ones anyway) creating two versions, they'll just follow the strictest regulations, as happens often in the USA where California has stricter emission standards than the rest of the states.





You must not have much of an idea of the enormity of the task then.

We are talking about decades.The UK will be paying for this for decades.Regulatory folks are measuring these changes, as a best case scenario, in 3 parliaments- which is 15 years.

It isn't a matter of the strictest laws win out- you will find that one country does one thing and another country does another thing, so you have to make a product that does two things.

And if this is really all about setting 'our own regulations' how is having to build a product that adheres to the regulations of two entirely different countries actually setting 'our own regulations'?It isn't.What is likely to happen here is the UK, being a much, much smaller market for motorcycles than the rest of Europe, won't have its own regulations, they will likely just follow the Euro regulation, because manufacturers won't want to have to make two different products.If this is the case then there will be no 'setting our own regulations'.

You haven't commented on the drugs regulation bit of my post.Do you have any idea how much work that will be?Drug regulation jobs are very well paid.A drugs regulatory job at a pharma company can be a £100k pa job plus all the usual benefits.Many people in this area of pharma are amongst the best paid because it is highly specialised- certainly better paid than the PM.

And again, the UK as a much smaller market than the EU will likely have to adopt something very close to (or exactly like) the EU regulations in order to buy from or sell drugs into the EU.

Let's take Botox, which I know quite a bit about.Botox has recently become approved for chronic migraine (it isn't just a cosmetic product it has several clinical indications).

The approval of Botox would have gone through the EMA for this specific indication.Say we were already in the post Brexit world and Botox was going through regulation for this clinical indication.Under the old system we would just automatically adopt the EU rules for this drug.In the new system we might have to wait for the EU to complete its regulatory process and then adopt that otherwise we would have to go through our own process, which costs the maker of Botox money.This cost will then be passed onto the customer, which in this case will be the NHS (because it is a clinical indication, not a cosmetic use).

Drugs are relatively cheap here in Europe, compared to America.There are many reasons for this but one reason is because regulatory process is relatively easy and is spread across multiple countries.The UK standing alone becomes a much less attractive proposition for drug companies to go through approval processes.

There are dozens of countries where these sorts of products are never approved for certain clinical indications because there is no real financial benefit for drug companies to do the work.













Didn't have you down as vain mate.

You kidding? He looks like a Ken doll mate!