so ....... are we leaving or not????

hobbio

dtr said:

hobbio said:

Why do we have to do something right away? There is no way something this important should be rushed. It's been a few days since the result came in, and politicians can't even organise a lunch run without forming 5 committees on the bread choices and a further 7 sub-committees on the effects of pickle vs mayo.

This needs to be done right, not quick.

The uncertainty is damaging.  The hurt will be worse the longer this drags out.  Businesses won't know where they want to employ staff or expand offices, so will either hold off from investing (and employing) or take the 'safe' option and expand somewhere they know will be inside the single market.

The damage will be worst for us but it will hurt the EU too, so if the aim is to negotiate with as much goodwill on both sides as possible, we should probably look to stop fucking up their economy by our indecision sooner rather than later.

No-one knows yet how the negotiations will go, but until they kick off with Article 50 it's all just fannying about.  For sure the leaders of leave are a bunch of morons for getting this far without any kind of plan, but we need someone to behave like a grown-up sometime soon and sit down at a negotiating table.

I thought the vote to leave was because we were convinced that we could run things more competently, show more initiative, and just plain do better than the EU.  The longer we leave it before we show the dimmest sign of political competence, the more that looks like unrealistic fantasy bullshit.

I'll repeat the fact that everyone's had less than a week to digest this result. The most damaging thing we can possibly do is to rush into anything right now.

Chalky

Fretwired;1128078" said:

Myranda said:



Either enact Article 50, or confirm you're not going to... but DO something





I'd do nothing. We need a leader and a government. French elections this year, German elections next year. We bide our time and make the UK an election issue in these countries. The markets will settle down when they see nothing is happening. They like certainty. They'll go haywire when we start negotiating. Schulz and Junker can go boil their heads.

Cameron said the new PM will have to decide on when to invoke Article50, effectively telling Juncker to back off until at least October. New PM, new Cabinet, decision on way forward.

So anyone calling for Article50 is going to have to wait a few months, probably around the time of Trump's election.

hugbot

Ideally, the next step would be calling a general election and every party states out whether they want to go and what exactly their vision of what to do next would look like.

In practise its not even like the parties are united on that front either. 

digitalscream

Well, Article 50 requires that a bill be passed according to the country in question's constitutional rules - which means it has to be an Act of Parliament. Given that all parties (except UKIP) were predominantly "Remain" and the vote was so close - with a lot of people on the Leave side changing their minds afterwards - I honestly think there's a good chance Article 50 won't be invoked at all.

If Boris becomes PM, I'm positive that it won't. His plan seems to have revolved around some informal pre-Article 50 negotiations, getting some concessions and then coming back saying, "Hey! We got everything we wanted anyway, so let's stay in the club!". Given that Merkel's spokesman actually laughed at that prospect this morning, Boris will probably just have to suck it up and accept that he's going to get a few years in the top job and then never play a part in British politics ever again.

On the bright side, he'll probably have a chance at a long-ish tenure on Have I Got News For You?.

Sporky

digitalscream said:

On the bright side, he'll probably have a chance at a long-ish tenure on Have I Got News For You?.

I find the prospect of him as PM mildly horrifying, but the prospect of him on HIGNFY most entertaining.

crunchman

This on the Guardian Website:

The prime minister will set up a new team of civil servants inside the Cabinet Office, reporting to cabinet, to draw up options for Britain’s renegotiations with the rest of the EU, his spokesman has announced.

The unit, which will also include officials from the Foreign Office and the Treasury, will carry out preliminary work, which could be handed to an incoming prime minister when the Conservatives’ leadership race is complete.

“What the civil service is there to do is to make sure that we prepare, as much as the civil service can, for a new prime minister,” she said.

Cameron’s troubleshooter Oliver Letwin will also be given a new “facilitative role”, consulting across government and with experts about the options.

Full Link here:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/27/brexit-live-george-osborne-economy-corbyn-shadow-cabinet

Same link also says that Tories want a new leader in place for 2nd of September.

They do need time to formulate a negotiating position - especially given that Cameron would not have approved the Civil Service working on that before the referendum.

Drew_TNBD

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

hugbot

Of all the shit decisions Cameron's made in this career peacing out at this point and leaving someone else to pick up the mess is undoubtably the most hilarious 

David Cameron reportedly told aides following his resignation speech: "Why should I do all the hard s**t?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-resignation-david-cameron-reportedly-asks-aides-why-should-i-do-the-hard-st-a7102431.html

octatonic

hugbot said:

Of all the shit decisions Cameron's made in this career peacing out at this point and leaving someone else to pick up the mess is undoubtably the most hilarious 

David Cameron reportedly told aides following his resignation speech: "Why should I do all the hard s**t?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-resignation-david-cameron-reportedly-asks-aides-why-should-i-do-the-hard-st-a7102431.html

It is a dick, but genius, move.

hobbio

Drew_fx said:

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

@Drew_fx

Agree 100% with the first point.

I'm beginning to agree with the second point, in as much as I don't know if I'd vote Leave again if there was a second referendum.

axisus

octatonic said:

hugbot said:

Of all the shit decisions Cameron's made in this career peacing out at this point and leaving someone else to pick up the mess is undoubtably the most hilarious 

David Cameron reportedly told aides following his resignation speech: "Why should I do all the hard s**t?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-resignation-david-cameron-reportedly-asks-aides-why-should-i-do-the-hard-st-a7102431.html

It is a dick, but genius, move.

That's what I was thinking. To Take out BoJo and Gove like that was an incredible manoeuvre from a sinking ship that seemed to have no weapons. If only he could have been that shrewd as PM.

octatonic

hobbio said:

Drew_fx said:

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

@Drew_fx

Agree 100% with the first point.

I'm beginning to agree with the second point, in as much as I don't know if I'd vote Leave again if there was a second referendum.

Are you both being genuine here?

Serious question- no piss taking from me.

Drew_TNBD

octatonic said:

hobbio said:

Drew_fx said:

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

@Drew_fx

Agree 100% with the first point.

I'm beginning to agree with the second point, in as much as I don't know if I'd vote Leave again if there was a second referendum.

Are you both being genuine here?

Serious question- no piss taking from me.

Yes. I am being genuine.

Sporky

Drew_fx said:

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

May I ask why on the latter?

octatonic

Drew_fx said:

octatonic said:

hobbio said:

Drew_fx said:

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

@Drew_fx

Agree 100% with the first point.

I'm beginning to agree with the second point, in as much as I don't know if I'd vote Leave again if there was a second referendum.

Are you both being genuine here?

Serious question- no piss taking from me.

Yes. I am being genuine.

Don't know what to say, mate.

Well, we are where we are- and I certainly don't wish you any ill will, you made a judgement about what you thought was best to do at the time.

Drew_TNBD

Sporky said:

Drew_fx said:

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

May I ask why on the latter?

Let me put it this way... I'm not at my best right now. My mental health is pretty poor and I made a kneejerk decision the morning of the vote based on frustrations and stresses I've got in my life.

I've always been pro immigration for fucksake! My wife is an immigrant, my child will be half Japanese, my best friends are all from EU countries, and the people that have treated me the worst in my life have always been white anglo saxon protestant little Englander wankers!

Wtf is wrong with me!?!

I've always been pro unity too. It's only been in the last few years as I've been more exposed to fuckwits on the internet, and then other fuckwits denouncing and fighting those first fuckwits, and it started to seep into my cognitive functioning... fucksake!

My whole decision was made out of ill informed spite and idiocy. Now I just want the ground to swallow me up.

crunchman

I'd still vote leave again.  Nothing fundamental has changed since Thursday.

In fact some of the establishment are owning up to the lies of Project Fear:

Merv King: 'I think that the Treasury is in a difficult position now because it made forecasts which were at least exaggerated'

From the Guardian's Brexit live thread (again):
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/27/brexit-live-george-osborne-economy-corbyn-shadow-cabinet

octatonic

axisus said:

octatonic said:

hugbot said:

Of all the shit decisions Cameron's made in this career peacing out at this point and leaving someone else to pick up the mess is undoubtably the most hilarious 

David Cameron reportedly told aides following his resignation speech: "Why should I do all the hard s**t?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-brexit-resignation-david-cameron-reportedly-asks-aides-why-should-i-do-the-hard-st-a7102431.html

It is a dick, but genius, move.

That's what I was thinking. To Take out BoJo and Gove like that was an incredible manoeuvre from a sinking ship that seemed to have no weapons. If only he could have been that shrewd as PM.

Well, he is clearly a shrewd man- no one gets to be PM who isn't clever.

But what are they clever at?

Being popular, being elected, manipulating people.

Actually governing seems to be somewhat separate to any of that- which, imho, is why we end up with the same sorts of people in government.

They are very good at playing politics, but not very good at governing.

It is like getting a guitar player to build a guitar- they are related but not necessarily transferable skills.

Sporky

I get the fuckwit thing - discussions/arguments on the inferweb tend to be very polarising, and this affair has been worse than most I can remember.

axisus

Drew_fx said:

Sporky said:

Drew_fx said:

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

May I ask why on the latter?

Let me put it this way... I'm not at my best right now. My mental health is pretty poor and I made a kneejerk decision the morning of the vote based on frustrations and stresses I've got in my life.

I've always been pro immigration for fucksake! My wife is an immigrant, my child will be half Japanese, my best friends are all from EU countries, and the people that have treated me the worst in my life have always been white anglo saxon protestant little Englander wankers!

Wtf is wrong with me!?!

I've always been pro unity too. It's only been in the last few years as I've been more exposed to fuckwits on the internet, and then other fuckwits denouncing and fighting those first fuckwits, and it started to seep into my cognitive functioning... fucksake!

My whole decision was made out of ill informed spite and idiocy. Now I just want the ground to swallow me up.

I wouldn't beat yourself up, your one vote didn't swing the result. The campaigns were both utterly dumb, and that fool Cameron set up the result with his incompetence. A great many people seem to have voted largely in protest at this govt.