so ....... are we leaving or not????

octatonic

paulmapp8306 said:

Not sure we "have" to do anything.   Its just as much our call as Europe's.  The "no free movement" was the biggest single reason for most to vote leave - to agree to it to get the trade wouldnt go down well at all.

 I susspect if we said "name your price - but no free movement" then Europe would come up with an offer. 

No-one else gets access to the single market without freedom of movement.

Whether we will is unknown- we can say this and that will happen until the cows come home but the reality is we don't know yet and now the £ is continuing to drop- it is $1.316 right now.

Myranda

To those saying not to rush in... it takes a minimum of two years, and can be rescinded in that time... what's rushing in about a two year reversible process?

paulmapp8306 said:

Not sure we "have" to do anything.   Its just as much our call as Europe's.  The "no free movement" was the biggest single reason for most to vote leave - to agree to it to get the trade wouldnt go down well at all.

 I susspect if we said "name your price - but no free movement" then Europe would come up with an offer. 

Except that the leader of the leave campaign is saying that's not on the cards... he specifically said British people would be able to work and travel to Europe as before... no way the EU would accept One-way free movement... 

Sporky

It's gone a bit "we're definitely leaving, but nothing's going to change except that we'll all feel much better about it".

paulmapp8306

Myranda said:

To those saying not to rush in... it takes a minimum of two years, and can be rescinded in that time... what's rushing in about a two year reversible process?

paulmapp8306 said:

Not sure we "have" to do anything.   Its just as much our call as Europe's.  The "no free movement" was the biggest single reason for most to vote leave - to agree to it to get the trade wouldnt go down well at all.

 I susspect if we said "name your price - but no free movement" then Europe would come up with an offer. 

Except that the leader of the leave campaign is saying that's not on the cards... he specifically said British people would be able to work and travel to Europe as before... no way the EU would accept One-way free movement... 

I think he was talking about during the 2 year process wasnt he?  Im not expecting "one way" traffic.  I see no reason why you cant TRAVEL in Europe freely - but not live and work freely.  That should be in the destination country needs your skills - and has space for you within its structure.  

Free movement - but no access to benefits, and needing a visa to work in another country - thats the perfect solution for rme - but not for many others I suspect.

Either way - the leader (nor any of) the leave campaign team can promise anything - there not in power and have no mandate to make such decisions or promises.  If ghe become PM - then he has the mandate to say such things - and he will live or die (politically) by anyenactment of such promises.

Bogwhoppit

Sporky said:

It's gone a bit "we're definitely leaving, but nothing's going to change except that we'll all feel much better about it".

That's not what I, and many others voted for. So if Boris bottles it, I hope he gets his political arse kicked around the playground for the next 20 years.

If I could vote a 2nd time, I would vote slightly differently. I'd walk faster to the polling station and carve a cross in the leave box instead of writing it.

octatonic

Bogwhoppit said:

Sporky said:

It's gone a bit "we're definitely leaving, but nothing's going to change except that we'll all feel much better about it".

That's not what I, and many others voted for. So if Boris bottles it, I hope he gets his political arse kicked around the playground for the next 20 years.

If I could vote a 2nd time, I would vote slightly differently. I'd walk faster to the polling station and carve a cross in the leave box instead of writing it.

Spoiling your ballot is pointless.

Bogwhoppit

octatonic said:

Bogwhoppit said:

Sporky said:

It's gone a bit "we're definitely leaving, but nothing's going to change except that we'll all feel much better about it".

That's not what I, and many others voted for. So if Boris bottles it, I hope he gets his political arse kicked around the playground for the next 20 years.

If I could vote a 2nd time, I would vote slightly differently. I'd walk faster to the polling station and carve a cross in the leave box instead of writing it.

Spoiling your ballot is pointless.

I'd do it gently....with thought.  Then kick the first cat I came across on the way home

paulmapp8306

octatonic said:

Bogwhoppit said:

Sporky said:

It's gone a bit "we're definitely leaving, but nothing's going to change except that we'll all feel much better about it".

That's not what I, and many others voted for. So if Boris bottles it, I hope he gets his political arse kicked around the playground for the next 20 years.

If I could vote a 2nd time, I would vote slightly differently. I'd walk faster to the polling station and carve a cross in the leave box instead of writing it.

Spoiling your ballot is pointless.

I thik hes carving in the BOX not the PAPER.

digitalscream

Myranda said:

To those saying not to rush in... it takes a minimum of two years, and can be rescinded in that time... what's rushing in about a two year reversible process?

To my understanding, it can only be rescinded if all the member states agree (which we can be pretty sure they won't), so triggering Article 50 means that everything comes to an end exactly two years later no matter what.

The reality is that it's not reversible.

In any case, we'd need that whole two years (and probably more, really) to get replacement laws and treaties in place. The government doesn't have anybody who's remotely qualified to do that, and there's no clear idea of what we actually want out of such laws and deals.

To start the clock ticking without any clue as to what we want or who's going to get it for us would be the purest stupidity.

Myranda

paulmapp8306 said:

Myranda said:

To those saying not to rush in... it takes a minimum of two years, and can be rescinded in that time... what's rushing in about a two year reversible process?

paulmapp8306 said:

Not sure we "have" to do anything.   Its just as much our call as Europe's.  The "no free movement" was the biggest single reason for most to vote leave - to agree to it to get the trade wouldnt go down well at all.

 I susspect if we said "name your price - but no free movement" then Europe would come up with an offer. 

Except that the leader of the leave campaign is saying that's not on the cards... he specifically said British people would be able to work and travel to Europe as before... no way the EU would accept One-way free movement... 

I think he was talking about during the 2 year process wasnt he?  Im not expecting "one way" traffic.  I see no reason why you cant TRAVEL in Europe freely - but not live and work freely.  That should be in the destination country needs your skills - and has space for you within its structure.  

Free movement - but no access to benefits, and needing a visa to work in another country - thats the perfect solution for rme - but not for many others I susspect.

He was saying that we will get increased ties with Europe, we'll still have freedom of movement, but wont be restricted by the European Court of Human Rights (because f*** human's and their rights!) ... so it certainly implied he was talking about AFTER the referendum... and that's Boris's hopes, if he's put in charge of the country for the exit, he'll be the one negotiating for these things... 

Also, what access to benefits - you have to be in the UK for 6 months before you can qualify (except asylum seekers, and this wont affect them).

It's looking like one of the front runners for leave, who may well be the leader of the country during the leave negotiations is only after fewer rights for the proles, but is fine with all the other stuff... not even bottling it, just up front doesn't seem to care about immigration or costs... purely about rights 

So, we'll still have freedom of movement, we'll still pay the same amount to the EU, but wont get the subisdies back so we'll lose money, and wont get sick-pay if you break a leg, and can be fired for being black... you might not have voted for it, but that appears to be what you're getting... thanks to politics the ordinary people may be the only ones to suffer... yay.

Sporky

digitalscream said:

To start the clock ticking without any clue as to what we want or who's going to get it for us would be the purest stupidity.

Don't say that or we'll get it!  :-O

crunchman

Free movement is the big issue.  For a lot of people (rightly or wrongly) that's what this was about.

The level of immigration is changing people's daily lives in London and the South East.  My daughter's nice little single form entry primary school is in the process of changing to a two form entry school.  It's not a big site and they have had to use a decent chunk of their outside space to build a new classroom block.  It's not just space either.  A school that is double the size has a very different feel to it.

We live in a very nice area without lots of non-English speaking migrants.  The school my wife teaches in is very different.  There is a class there that has 5 or 6 kids that do not speak English.  When they phoned the borough LEA to ask for support, they have closed down the team that provided support in this kind of situation.  Even when they are behaving well these kids need a lot of support, but one or two of them are getting bored silly because they don't understand anything and then being disruptive.  It affects the education of the whole class.  People see this kind of stuff and is a large reason why a lot of them voted to leave.

Part of the problem is Cameron's dishonesty in claiming that he would reduce immigration to the tens of thousands level.  If he'd been honest and admitted that was impossible then you could have budgeted and planned for the schools and other services that would be needed.  If he had been honest about that then he wouldn't have won the last election though.  UKIP would have got far more votes.

If there is a deal that involves free movement then UKIP will rise again when they should be disbanding.

The best hope is some kind of deal that involves free movement of goods (cars, food etc.) but not people.  That should be possible as we currently import more from Europe than we export to them.  It will be to their advantage.  The difficult bit will be in the services sector - especially financial services.  They won't be so keen to give us access to the financial markets.

guitarfishbay

Drew_fx said:

Sporky said:

Drew_fx said:

It should never have been a public vote.

I voted the wrong way, I should've voted remain.

May I ask why on the latter?

Let me put it this way... I'm not at my best right now. My mental health is pretty poor and I made a kneejerk decision the morning of the vote based on frustrations and stresses I've got in my life.

I've always been pro immigration for fucksake! My wife is an immigrant, my child will be half Japanese, my best friends are all from EU countries, and the people that have treated me the worst in my life have always been white anglo saxon protestant little Englander wankers!

Wtf is wrong with me!?!

I've always been pro unity too. It's only been in the last few years as I've been more exposed to fuckwits on the internet, and then other fuckwits denouncing and fighting those first fuckwits, and it started to seep into my cognitive functioning... fucksake!

My whole decision was made out of ill informed spite and idiocy. Now I just want the ground to swallow me up.

That is the story of 1 vote man, it didn't swing the result.

I can tell you it got nullified because my g/f's 91 year old Daily Mail subscriber granny decided to vote remain, which surprised us to be honest as she exactly fits the profile of a typical leave voter.  We saw her at the weekend and she was at her usual complaining about immigrants, despite the fact she seems to know none other than my dad who works full time.

At the end of the day everyone had their own reasons for what they did on the day, no single person has to justify themselves unless they choose to do so.

paulmapp8306

Myranda said:

Also, what access to benefits - you have to be in the UK for 6 months before you can qualify (except asylum seekers, and this wont affect them).

AS in - no access to benefits unless you a UK citizen, so 5 years residency them British passport.  Before then, you can live and work in the UK if you have a VISA/Permit, but if your out of work you stand on your own two feet, or return home.  If your serious youll find a way - do the 5 years, then become a British citizen - THEN have access to benefits.

On the human rights issue - which is contentious.  Im all for getting rid to the EU court.  That seems in many parts to be about rights for the individual over the rights of the many.  For instance where is the right for the UK citizens safety, if a non UK citizen is convicted of a terrorist crime - but cant be deported because the EU court says hes an EU citizen so have the right to stay.  There are many other examples wher the court has it right.

Ultimately just because we opt out of the EU court of human rights, doesnt mean we dont respect human rights - or start our own court based in UK law.  WE can still be civilised without the European overlords dictating everything.

Bogwhoppit

UKIP are sitting in the wings with their new motto "Help us ensure "Leave" means Leave".

Farage of all people knew this process would be watered down if the leave vote won.

paulmapp8306

Theres no way Id go as far as UKIP though...

Myranda

paulmapp8306 said:

Myranda said:

Also, what access to benefits - you have to be in the UK for 6 months before you can qualify (except asylum seekers, and this wont affect them).

AS in - no access to benefits unless you a UK citizen, so 5 years residency them British passport.  Before then, you can live and work in the UK if you have a VISA/Permit, but if your out of work you stand on your own two feet, or return home.  If your serious youll find a way - do the 5 years, then become a British citizen - THEN have access to benefits.

On the human rights issue - which is contentious.  Im all for getting rid to the EU court.  That seems in many parts to be about rights for the individual over the rights of the many.  For instance where is the right for the UK citizens safety, if a non UK citizen is convicted of a terrorist crime - but cant be deported because the EU court says hes an EU citizen so have the right to stay.  There are many other examples wher the court has it right.

Ultimately just because we opt out of the EU court of human rights, doesnt mean we dont respect human rights - or start our own court based in UK law.  WE can still be civilised without the European overlords dictating everything.

Right... so someone who has lived here say 2 years works at a company that's poorly managed so goes bust... they struggle to find work. Much better to have them starve to the point where they HAVE to steel in order to survive... than pay them the utter pittence that is the Universal Credit system... much better to have crime all over the place.

Benefits cost us less than the consequences of not paying them costs us... same as the NHS treating people with infectious disease whether they've got the right passport or not - herd immunity - treat them to stop us getting sick... saves money.

In your example of a terrorist - they go to jail... not sure where the lack of safety you imagine is. Abu Hamsa is probably what you're thinking of, and while he was a dick, his crimes amount to probably hate speech... You want to start putting people on planes based on what they say/believe/worship you might as well be saying put them on special trains and send them to the showers... WE are the good guys so we don't do things that will result in torture or murder.

OH and ... he wasn't deported because of the European Human Rights act - nothing to do with the EU I'm afraid... our leaving the EU can't change that as it's not them that enacted it.

But ... carry on spouting the UKIP manifesto - they were wrong when they wrote it, and it's still wrong.

You want to talk about a benefit that actually costs the country a sizeable amount - it's Pensions... and not many people want to say "f*** you" to the old... but they're a LOT bigger percentage of our welfare budget than all the unemployment and dissability benefits combined.

Fretwired

Myranda said:

He was saying that we will get increased ties with Europe, we'll still have freedom of movement, but wont be restricted by the European Court of Human Rights (because f*** human's and their rights!) ... so it certainly implied he was talking about AFTER the referendum... and that's Boris's hopes, if he's put in charge of the country for the exit, he'll be the one negotiating for these things... 

@Myranda

By 'he' do you mean Boris? As if you do Boris is pro European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) but anti European Court of Justice (they are different entities). Theresa May on the other hand is anti ECHR but pro EU but seems to forget that you have to be a member of the ECHR to be a member of the EU. I suspect the EU will make ECHR membership mandatory  in any post-Brexit deal.

Boris on ECHR .. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/boris-johnson-defends-european-convention-8033527

paulmapp8306

1. - no they dont have to starve.  Work or go home.  If you loose your job, thats a shame - but I do think you need to make it not worth staying if you cant work.  Harsh at times maybe - but not out of order I dont think.  It is a contentious subject though I know.

2.   The Universal credit system is too generous already IMO.  Again - contentious though.

3.  Didnt say anything about denying them access to medical treatment/NHS.

4.  Some arnt in jail - and cant be deported.

5.  Regards Mr Hamsa - its not what he did - its what he incited.   Should have been out of this country simple.  

6.  I dont want them on a place for what they say/believe/worship as long as they are respectfull to others.  They are entitles to their own believes and views - but you dont have to force them on others or generate hate to those who are different.  Incidentally I have the same view of white british citizens who share hate of any kind - unfortunately as citizens we have to deal with them ourselves - if there not citizens then get them back to where they ARE citizens.

OH and - I wasnt actually referring to Hamsa with the EU court reference actually.

AND - I cant stand UKIP.  The only vote they would get from me would be one to send them somewhere where they can receive what they give out.  You dont know me, and I really dont appreciate your assumptions based on a few - reasoned - points (which may or may not realistic).  

How to put things in a basic language, that cant be taken the wrong way?  I cant really.  Ill try.

If you are not an UK citizen - support your own way financially.  Visaa/work permits should be issued for entry to the UK, on condition of that work.  If you loose that work (your fault or not) the Visa/permit no longer applies and off you go.  Medical and other such services should of course be accessible.  So should free legal aid if required,  and they should have the same worker rights (as they are working).  As always, there should be a system to review individuals who no longer have the job they came in for - as if its unfair dismissal (as an example) they have the right to fight that.  In these cases, welfare benefits in line with UK citizens should be granted.

If you cant support yourself, and you dont qualify for British citizenship, then return home.  Harsh, but needs must I fear - we arnt a large country in reality.

Pensions do cost a lot - but I think youll find most that receive them have put much more into the country over their lives than they receive - and Far Far more than many who have never worked at all.

Myranda

Think he said European Court hence my confusion... but... 

If that's all he's after it's still NOT what leave voters wanted... if May is anti ECHR then she's another to look out for.