The F1 thread

Fretwired

prowla said:

I'm not sure about all this Bottas bashing; he's a darned good number 2 driver.

Bottas started well but has been no where near Hamilton recently - in the rain, with a cold Hamilton pulled out a decent lead over Bottas and Vestappen out qualified him. The problem for Mercedes is Hamilton's age and the likelihood that next year Honda and possibly Renault will have parity with Mercedes engine power. It's clear Ferrari has the most powerful engine in F1 but they have issues with their car - but if they'd not made so many mistakes this year they could have won a couple of races. So Mercedes have to assume that a resurgent Red Bull and a better organised Ferrari will be up their exhaust pipe next year. Hamilton can hold his own with Vettel, Vestappen and Leclerc but can Bottas? Most people would say the best four drivers in F1 are Hamilton, Vestappen, Leclerc and Vettel. Renault are throwing the kitchen sink at developing their engine so you could see Norris or Ricciardo in Bottas territory.

Vestappen won't go to Mercedes next year. He's in the best car right now - if Honda keeps delivering he'll be getting pole positions by the end of the season and could be in a potential championship winning car next year. Toto said he'd make a decision this month on Bottas which sounds ominous to me - are they going to swap him? Many tip Russell to be a possible world champ - would Toto swap Bottas for Russell and get some young talent on board like Ferrari?  Hamilton's out of contract next year - might he favour a last hurrah with Ferrari for a season or two?

Boromedic

prowla said:

Boromedic said:

prowla said:

Hamilton was well below par, so it's no surprise that he didn't perform very well and Merc completely stuffed his race too; the only good thing for him are that it all happened on the same weekend and he still increased his championship lead.

I'm not sure about all this Bottas bashing; he's a darned good number 2 driver.

I think the fact Lewis put it in the wall scuppered his race the most.... 

I thing that's encompassed by "not performing very well"... :-)

Aye, just stating the obvious really. They weren't ready for his pitstop as he'd binned it so close to the pits so not really their fault. They should never have stopped for dry tyres you could tell that just on the TV footage. Merc did then exacerbate this with further mistakes of course. Shows they're not infallible and it looked worse cos they were all in that celebratory 50s get up!

Garthy

Fretwired said:

prowla said:

I'm not sure about all this Bottas bashing; he's a darned good number 2 driver.

Bottas started well but has been no where near Hamilton recently - in the rain, with a cold Hamilton pulled out a decent lead over Bottas and Vestappen out qualified him. The problem for Mercedes is Hamilton's age and the likelihood that next year Honda and possibly Renault will have parity with Mercedes engine power. It's clear Ferrari has the most powerful engine in F1 but they have issues with their car - but if they'd not made so many mistakes this year they could have won a couple of races. So Mercedes have to assume that a resurgent Red Bull and a better organised Ferrari will be up their exhaust pipe next year. Hamilton can hold his own with Vettel, Vestappen and Leclerc but can Bottas? Most people would say the best four drivers in F1 are Hamilton, Vestappen, Leclerc and Vettel. Renault are throwing the kitchen sink at developing their engine so you could see Norris or Ricciardo in Bottas territory.

Vestappen won't go to Mercedes next year. He's in the best car right now - if Honda keeps delivering he'll be getting pole positions by the end of the season and could be in a potential championship winning car next year. Toto said he'd make a decision this month on Bottas which sounds ominous to me - are they going to swap him? Many tip Russell to be a possible world champ - would Toto swap Bottas for Russell and get some young talent on board like Ferrari?  Hamilton's out of contract next year - might he favour a last hurrah with Ferrari for a season or two?

Bottas's results for the season are: 1 2 2 1 2 3 4 2 3 2 DNF only one other driver has a better record. From 11 rounds Merc haven't scored the full 43 points only three times, they aren't going to change a pairing that works. Hamilton is going nowhere no matter how badly you want him to.

stickyfiddle

Garthy said:

Fretwired said:

prowla said:

I'm not sure about all this Bottas bashing; he's a darned good number 2 driver.

Bottas started well but has been no where near Hamilton recently - in the rain, with a cold Hamilton pulled out a decent lead over Bottas and Vestappen out qualified him. The problem for Mercedes is Hamilton's age and the likelihood that next year Honda and possibly Renault will have parity with Mercedes engine power. It's clear Ferrari has the most powerful engine in F1 but they have issues with their car - but if they'd not made so many mistakes this year they could have won a couple of races. So Mercedes have to assume that a resurgent Red Bull and a better organised Ferrari will be up their exhaust pipe next year. Hamilton can hold his own with Vettel, Vestappen and Leclerc but can Bottas? Most people would say the best four drivers in F1 are Hamilton, Vestappen, Leclerc and Vettel. Renault are throwing the kitchen sink at developing their engine so you could see Norris or Ricciardo in Bottas territory.

Vestappen won't go to Mercedes next year. He's in the best car right now - if Honda keeps delivering he'll be getting pole positions by the end of the season and could be in a potential championship winning car next year. Toto said he'd make a decision this month on Bottas which sounds ominous to me - are they going to swap him? Many tip Russell to be a possible world champ - would Toto swap Bottas for Russell and get some young talent on board like Ferrari?  Hamilton's out of contract next year - might he favour a last hurrah with Ferrari for a season or two?

Bottas's results for the season are: 1 2 2 1 2 3 4 2 3 2 DNF only one other driver has a better record. From 11 rounds Merc haven't scored the full 43 points only three times, they aren't going to change a pairing that works. Hamilton is going nowhere no matter how badly you want him to.

I agree. There are maybe 2 drivers on the whole grid that would have a chance of beating Hamilton on his current form and Mercedes don't need or want to go through that again. They got away with it with Rosberg because the others teams were miles back, but these days they can't afford to have their two drivers scrapping.

I reckon Bottas will get a single-year deal with options (for Mercedes!), then they'll work out what to do once Ham makes a decision for 2021. 

TimmyO

Fretwired said:

prowla said:

I'm not sure about all this Bottas bashing; he's a darned good number 2 driver.

Bottas started well but has been no where near Hamilton recently -

I don't think anyone's saying that Bottas is multiple-world-champion material (in the way Lewis already is and Max absolutely may become) but that he's a bloody good #2 driver for even a top team - I'd take him over Ricciardo for example.

He's got that "sideman" persona that a few have had over the years (eg Barrichello, Massa) which I think makes it easy to under-acknowledge his talent 

Fretwired

Garthy said:

Bottas's results for the season are: 1 2 2 1 2 3 4 2 3 2 DNF only one other driver has a better record. From 11 rounds Merc haven't scored the full 43 points only three times, they aren't going to change a pairing that works. Hamilton is going nowhere no matter how badly you want him to.

Did you read what I wrote?

Hamilton is going nowhere no matter how badly you want him to.

What? I don't care where he goes, but he has said that one day he'd love to drive for Ferrari and he has an amazing collection of Ferrari cars - he regularly goes to the factory. Hamilton likes to challenge himself and in 2021 there will be new rules. Who knows.

Back to Bottas. You correctly state the results so far. But read what I wrote. I'm looking forward. Red Bull had a poor start to the year - the Honda engine was lacking power. Since then Honda has delivered more power and reliability and Red Bull have won two races. There's a new engine upgrade coming. Toto agrees that Ferrari have the fastest car - however the drivers have been let down by reliability issues, poor team decision making and their own errors. They could have won a couple of Grand Prix this year.

Let's look at Germany. Hamilton on pole and Bottas a distant third as Vestappen split the Mercs. Leclerc was fast all weekend and Vettel wasn't far behind. If Ferrari had reliability then Hamilton could have had pole, Leclerc on the front row, Vestappen and Vettel on the second row with Bottas well behind. And that's the issue for Toto. Can Bottas deliver when the Merc isn't the dominant car? I don't think so.

Jump to next year - Red Bull have a great car design, Honda have closed the power gap with Mercedes; Ferrari bring in new processes, improve reliability and decision making. Mercedes are under pressure. Hamilton will deliver, Bottas will not.

Modellista

^ TL;DR, Bottas needs to go.  I agree Hamilton is likely to move to Ferrari in 2021 (I've said 2020 in the past because ignorance).

In which case, Bottas just doesn't fit in the team in any scenario I can imagine past 2020.  He's not championship material.  But if we assume Hamilton will move from Mercedes in 2021, if Bottas remains he will consider himself #1 driver, except we've just concluded he's not good enough for that position.  He won't want to be shown up by the young upstart.

Mercedes need to make a decision on who their future is.  Ocon, Russell, Norris, maybe Vandoorne?  Two of those are out of the sport and none have driven a front-running car.  They need to get their bright new hope in the car for a season instead of Bottas so they can learn the ropes, not least from Hamilton, before he toddles off to wherever.  Then they have another tricky decision of who replaces Hamilton.

Or they just throw in the towel when Lewis leaves.  All teams are out of contract for 2021 and nobody knows how the talks will play out.

gavin_axecaster

While it may be romantic to think Hamilton will go to Ferrari and win another championship I don't think it's a reality. Alonso couldn't do it in what, 5 years? Unless the rules for 2021 favour the Ferrari they will be playing catch-up for another couple of years. Mercedes are extremely good at getting the jump on new regs and having a competitive (or dominant) car out of the gate.

If I were a world champion sportsman I'd want to go out at the top, not after a couple of seasons battling for 4th.

Hasn't Hamilton already said he'll decide if he's going to retire when he sees the 2021 rules/regs?

stickyfiddle

gavin_axecaster said:

While it may be romantic to think Hamilton will go to Ferrari and win another championship I don't think it's a reality. Alonso couldn't do it in what, 5 years? Unless the rules for 2021 favour the Ferrari they will be playing catch-up for another couple of years. Mercedes are extremely good at getting the jump on new regs and having a competitive (or dominant) car out of the gate.

If I were a world champion sportsman I'd want to go out at the top, not after a couple of seasons battling for 4th.

Hasn't Hamilton already said he'll decide if he's going to retire when he sees the 2021 rules/regs?

Ya, I don't see him at Ferrari. I don't see him as the type to want to "beat" Seb by going into his team and doing what he couldn't and winning a title. He's effectively been a Mercedes guy for 21 years, and is likely to equal or beat every record going by the end of next year. 

I could see him hanging on for an 8th title if he thinks that's on the table to fully capture every major record, but Mercedes will be his best chance of that. It's possible that they might drop back after 2021, but it's also likely that they're already spending more on R&D for that car than anyone else and probably have been for 18 months. Moving anywhere else is just adding risk he doesn't need to take. 

TimmyO

Seeing how (apparently) thrown Lewis gets when the team are even remotely disorganised or inconsistent, he seems to be a poor fit for the Ferrari setup I'd have thought 

TimmyO

The kings of strategy... 

thumpingrug

another good race.  Surprised though at how far off the pace ferrari were

boogieman

TimmyO said:

The kings of strategy... 

I only saw the C4 highlights. Did anyone on Sky say why RB didn’t pull Max in for tyres once Lewis started catching him hand over fist?  The RB was really quick once he’d got the softs on, I would’ve thought he could have passed Lewis again with no problems and taken the race? 

sweepy

boogieman said:

TimmyO said:

The kings of strategy... 

I only saw the C4 highlights. Did anyone say why RB didn’t pull Max in for tyres once Lewis started catching him hand over fist?  The RB was really quick once he’d got the softs on, I would’ve thought he could have passed Lewis again with no problems and taken the race? 

If they had, Max would have been @3secs behind Hamilton after the Pitstop and they knew that they couldn’t match Hamilton’s race pace, so they were damned if they did, damned if they didn’t tbh

boogieman

sweepy said:

boogieman said:

TimmyO said:

The kings of strategy... 

I only saw the C4 highlights. Did anyone say why RB didn’t pull Max in for tyres once Lewis started catching him hand over fist?  The RB was really quick once he’d got the softs on, I would’ve thought he could have passed Lewis again with no problems and taken the race? 

If they had, Max would have been @3secs behind Hamilton after the Pitstop and they knew that they couldn’t match Hamilton’s race pace, so they were damned if they did, damned if they didn’t tbh

Fair enough. I thought that Lewis’s tyres might have been knackered enough by the end for Max to pass him, but if the Merc still had better pace then maybe not. 

markr76

thumpingrug said:

another good race.  Surprised though at how far off the pace ferrari were

Well the Ferrari doesn’t corner as well as our car or the Red bull. They are super quick on the straights. Budapest is pretty much like a glorified karting track. Just 1 corner after the other!

They'll be a real threat at spa and monza I’d guess.

TimmyO

boogieman said:

sweepy said:

boogieman said:

TimmyO said:

The kings of strategy... 

I only saw the C4 highlights. Did anyone say why RB didn’t pull Max in for tyres once Lewis started catching him hand over fist?  The RB was really quick once he’d got the softs on, I would’ve thought he could have passed Lewis again with no problems and taken the race? 

If they had, Max would have been @3secs behind Hamilton after the Pitstop and they knew that they couldn’t match Hamilton’s race pace, so they were damned if they did, damned if they didn’t tbh

Fair enough. I thought that Lewis’s tyres might have been knackered enough by the end for Max to pass him, but if the Merc still had better pace then maybe not. 

As soon as the RB gave up track position Lewes would have been able to manage the gap rather than push super hard all the time - the tyres wouldn't have been significantly different in life to have had the kind of advantage that Max would have needed - having not pitted on the same lap as Lewis their best chance was to hold track position. 

Also let's not forget that Lewis is really good on this circuit - when they were close before the pitstop he looked to be nailing apexes and corner exits far more precisely than Max - the "Lewis is better here" aspect also applied 

TimmyO

I see Res Bull PR are going with "P2 is all that was ever possible" and trying to keep a straight face while doing so 

1. You got poll on merit
2. You got mugged when Lewis closed up unchallenged pre stop
3. If you pitted on the same lap...

The only way it's a true statement is in that your driver isn't as good as the one that beat you 

I really detest the Horner brand of PR 

markr76

We just had our race debrief at work (and champagne.) they said that even if red bull had pit for new tyres they still didn’t have the raw pace to beat Hamilton. Our car was just a shade quicker round there. Plus it was managing the tyres nicely. Where the red bull was a bit harder on its tyres. Plus Hamilton had the bit between his teeth after last weekends shambles!

sinbaadi

markr76 said:

We just had our race debrief at work (and champagne.) they said that even if red bull had pit for new tyres they still didn’t have the raw pace to beat Hamilton. Our car was just a shade quicker round there. Plus it was managing the tyres nicely. Where the red bull was a bit harder on its tyres. Plus Hamilton had the bit between his teeth after last weekends shambles!

Are you not in breach of NDA's galore by talking about any of the content of a team debrief?
(Even if it is generic and vague).