So who is looking forward to the Olympics

Philtheguitar

UnclePsychosis said:

Oh, and a reminder that Khelif represents the famously liberal country of *checks notes* Algeria, which doesn't recognise gender transition. 

The more I look into this, the more the whole thing stinks of anti-trans bigotry. 

A fairly mediocre boxer, with a fairly mediocre record, hits an opponent who was defending abysmally and the whole fucking world loses their minds.

There it is, the scary B word. Call anyone you disagree with a bigot all you like. It doesn't change biology. 

Jetsam1

I think maybe just cancel all sports as all it seems to do is make people angry, act as a proxy for nationalism and politics and is frankly dull to watch and do.

Oh and the corruption, sport washing of nasty regimes. Money laundering.......

Philtheguitar

UnclePsychosis said:

Oh, and a reminder that Khelif represents the famously liberal country of *checks notes* Algeria, which doesn't recognise gender transition. 

The more I look into this, the more the whole thing stinks of anti-trans bigotry. 

A fairly mediocre boxer, with a fairly mediocre record, hits an opponent who was defending abysmally and the whole fucking world loses their minds.

I don't appreciate your anti Sunni Muslim bigotry. 

UnclePsychosis

Philtheguitar said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Oh, and a reminder that Khelif represents the famously liberal country of *checks notes* Algeria, which doesn't recognise gender transition. 

The more I look into this, the more the whole thing stinks of anti-trans bigotry. 

A fairly mediocre boxer, with a fairly mediocre record, hits an opponent who was defending abysmally and the whole fucking world loses their minds.

I don't appreciate your anti Sunni Muslim bigotry. 

Offset

Philtheguitar said:

@Offset I thought they were a 'trans woman'? 

Nope!

Offset

Timcito said:

Offset said: 

But she isn't a man FFS.

Must be something in that water again ...

  Bang to rights  

TeleMaster

UnclePsychosis said:

Oh, and a reminder that Khelif represents the famously liberal country of *checks notes* Algeria, which doesn't recognise gender transition. 

The more I look into this, the more the whole thing stinks of anti-trans bigotry. 

A fairly mediocre boxer, with a fairly mediocre record, hits an opponent who was defending abysmally and the whole fucking world loses their minds.

Yea. This competitor is not trans, was never male and is not a man and was assigned female at birth. If she has too much testosterone for the sport whatever, but people need to seriously think because so many people sound so ridiculous and uninformed. 

Offset

^^ The facts encapsulated in two short sentences.

Rocker

UnclePsychosis said:

So much disinformation doing the rounds today.

Khelif isn't trans. 

Khelif wasn't "born a man" 

Khelif has lost fights to at least nine different women. 

Khelif does not have a reputation for being a hard hitting boxer. 

As one boxing account put it earlier "imagine being so much technically better than your opponent that you start a global trans panic". 

If she lost fights to at least nine women boxers, how the hell did she get selected for her countries Olympic team?

UnclePsychosis

Rocker said:

UnclePsychosis said:

So much disinformation doing the rounds today.

Khelif isn't trans. 

Khelif wasn't "born a man" 

Khelif has lost fights to at least nine different women. 

Khelif does not have a reputation for being a hard hitting boxer. 

As one boxing account put it earlier "imagine being so much technically better than your opponent that you start a global trans panic". 

If she lost fights to at least nine women boxers, how the hell did she get selected for her countries Olympic team?

News at ten: athlete selected for Olympics despite having lost competitions before. In related news, man shouts at cloud. 

munckee

You could lose all but one fight and still be the best boxer in your country.

mrkb

Rocker said:

UnclePsychosis said:

So much disinformation doing the rounds today.

Khelif isn't trans. 

Khelif wasn't "born a man" 

Khelif has lost fights to at least nine different women. 

Khelif does not have a reputation for being a hard hitting boxer. 

As one boxing account put it earlier "imagine being so much technically better than your opponent that you start a global trans panic". 

If she lost fights to at least nine women boxers, how the hell did she get selected for her countries Olympic team?

maybe not many other woman wanted to punch others in the face for fun?

fretmeister

UnclePsychosis

Didn't know that Fret. Thanks for getting the conversation back to a more interesting place! 

fretmeister

And for anyone claiming that it is “impossible” for women to have Y chromosomes….

So there you have it.

Khelif is a woman, has always been a woman. Lived her entire life as a woman. No trans surgery, no M to F medication, nothing. Just happens to be one of nature’s outliers.

The only proper question to ask is whether outliers should be excluded? This is a far more difficult question than most realise.

Every Olympic athlete is an outlier. Every one of them.

The only thing that makes this contentious is that the features of this syndrome include Y chromosomes.

fretmeister

Philtheguitar said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Oh, and a reminder that Khelif represents the famously liberal country of *checks notes* Algeria, which doesn't recognise gender transition. 

The more I look into this, the more the whole thing stinks of anti-trans bigotry. 

A fairly mediocre boxer, with a fairly mediocre record, hits an opponent who was defending abysmally and the whole fucking world loses their minds.

There it is, the scary B word. Call anyone you disagree with a bigot all you like. It doesn't change biology. 

Bizarre and demonstrably false argument.

Of course you can update understanding of biology.

Couple of hundred years ago the main view of biologists was that black people were not fully human.
Human understanding was thankfully updated since then.

fretmeister

UnclePsychosis said:

Didn't know that Fret. Thanks for getting the conversation back to a more interesting place! 

It raises some other interesting questions too - although Bacyadan identifies as male, he has not undergone any trans medical procedures and competes in the womens event.

fretmeister

50% of all trans people are ignored in the debates. Nobody ever mentions transmen, but a balanced approached has to be taken for all. Transmen are at a material disadvantage in cismen sports. Transwomen have an advantage in ciswomen sports.

I'm sure there will be a few trans campaigners who would demand that a Mike Tyson level competitor be allowed to compete in transwomen sports after reassignment, but that would dangerous to all involved and I suspect it would not be a particularly popular option even with a lot of campaigners. But it would also be dangerous for a transman to get in the ring with Mike Tyson in the mens divisions.

Until the technology advances to the point that a trans person is indistinguishable to a cis person I think for speed / strength events - particularly at elite level - new categories should be introduced. I realise that might in itself cause more bigotry for a while, but advancements in anything often need a few steps back before they go forward. When the Paralympics were introduced there were questions raised about whether injured / diseased people should be doing such a thing (thankfully no social media in those days), but it is now here to stay.

What we absolutely do not need is a bunch of eijits shouting "trans" at competitors just because they have unusual ability or a medical condition that gives an advantage etc etc. 25 years ago the people shouting "trans" now would be shouting "steroids!" at them, often with the same level of evidence...

That's as stupid as the "reds under the bed" McCarthy approach. 

This shouldn't even be an issue in sports where strength / speed are not the deciding factor. There is literally no sensible reason why darts / snooker / chess etc are segregated still.

Although I am absolutely sure that at some point we'll get some bellend arguing against a trans snooker player for reasons that don't go further than "I don't like it, I demand you listen to me" nonsense.

munckee

I agree with every word of that. 

UnclePsychosis

I agree with what you say, Fret - but have to be pedantic about you mentioning Chess.

Chess isn't segregated. There are women's events and open events. Open events are open to everybody. There are no "men only" chess events, at least definitely not at elite level. 

Chess obviously does still suffer from the fact that women's only events remain a necessity, sadly that has far more to do with the historic failings of the (entirely male dominated) chess community to make women feel welcome, included, and valued. However there is no legislation to exclude the next Judit Polgar from competing with the best of the men. Cultural and misogynistic bullshit, perhaps but not the rules!