So who is looking forward to the Olympics

fretmeister

I stand corrected!

guitars4you

Another Gold - Women's Double Sculls - With the men getting a silver 

Gassage

fretmeister said:

50% of all trans people are ignored in the debates. Nobody ever mentions transmen, but a balanced approached has to be taken for all. Transmen are at a material disadvantage in cismen sports. Transwomen have an advantage in ciswomen sports.

I'm sure there will be a few trans campaigners who would demand that a Mike Tyson level competitor be allowed to compete in transwomen sports after reassignment, but that would dangerous to all involved and I suspect it would not be a particularly popular option even with a lot of campaigners. But it would also be dangerous for a transman to get in the ring with Mike Tyson in the mens divisions.

Until the technology advances to the point that a trans person is indistinguishable to a cis person I think for speed / strength events - particularly at elite level - new categories should be introduced. I realise that might in itself cause more bigotry for a while, but advancements in anything often need a few steps back before they go forward. When the Paralympics were introduced there were questions raised about whether injured / diseased people should be doing such a thing (thankfully no social media in those days), but it is now here to stay.

What we absolutely do not need is a bunch of eijits shouting "trans" at competitors just because they have unusual ability or a medical condition that gives an advantage etc etc. 25 years ago the people shouting "trans" now would be shouting "steroids!" at them, often with the same level of evidence...

That's as stupid as the "reds under the bed" McCarthy approach. 

This shouldn't even be an issue in sports where strength / speed are not the deciding factor. There is literally no sensible reason why darts / snooker / chess etc are segregated still.

Although I am absolutely sure that at some point we'll get some bellend arguing against a trans snooker player for reasons that don't go further than "I don't like it, I demand you listen to me" nonsense.

I agree with a lot of this.

However;

1. It will not head off the Trans support lobby. They are absolutely uncompromising on a trans woman is a woman.
2. Sport needs equality, but not at the expense of safety or fair competition, World Rugby use the heirarchy 1. Safety 2. Fairness 3. Inclusion - and I agree with that.
3. The power/speed difference is absolutely enormous. To put in context, the fastest female cricket bowlers in the world bowl around 71-74mph, a speed I can achieve at the age of 60 off six paces. The punch force of a boxer M v F is 160% greater.
4. Sooner or later someone will deliberately transition to lowest standard of testing in order to win money- whether it be in tennis, golf or boxing. That makes a mockery of it.

fretmeister

Gassage said:

I agree with a lot of this.

However;

1. It will not head off the Trans support lobby. They are absolutely uncompromising on a trans woman is a woman.
2. Sport needs equality, but not at the expense of safety or fair competition, World Rugby use the heirarchy 1. Safety 2. Fairness 3. Inclusion - and I agree with that.
3. The power/speed difference is absolutely enormous. To put in context, the fastest female cricket bowlers in the world bowl around 71-74mph, a speed I can achieve at the age of 60 off six paces. The punch force of a boxer M v F is 160% greater.
4. Sooner or later someone will deliberately transition to lowest standard of testing in order to win money- whether it be in tennis, golf or boxing. That makes a mockery of it.

1: I know - I mentioned that some of them will do that. However not all of the trans lobby would want to damage their own advancement by doing something so obviously dangerous that would set them back decades.

2: I know. Hence the need for new categories until there is genuinely no difference after transitioning. Maybe in 500 years a brain transplant into another body that went through puberty in the desired gender will be possible. 

3: See 2.

4: See 2

Gassage

@fretmeister ;

Won't requote....

But the issue is, that's not acceptable to those affected. At the risk of obvious punning, it's a binary option or GTFO.

fretmeister

Gassage said:

@fretmeister ;

Won't requote....

But the issue is, that's not acceptable to those affected. At the risk of obvious punning, it's a binary option or GTFO.

At the moment it's only the loudest most militant voices that are heard. If new categories were introduced then I think more moderate voices would come forward from both sides. Anti-Trans saying it's a good idea because it separates everyone... and the Pro Trans saying it is a start in the right direction because people can compete rather than be excluded.

I have a suspicion that there are more moderate voices than realised but they do not want to appear to be traitors to their "side" at the moment, particularly with the shit show of social media.

I have noticed that it is not usually the athletes themselves that push a binary option, it's the lobbyists and others who wouldn't get picked for their pub skittles team.

Militants at each end need to be kept out of it.

It could even happen almost as an accident. If say a suitably powerful body ruled that Transwomen are women in sports and can compete in what I will call Open Womens events, even in combat sports, then ciswomen will simply not take part. It will automatically become a Transwomen category even if the membership of that category is not limited that way by any rule.

Ciswomen will then set up a Ciswomen League instead. As long as the Open Womens category continued to exist there could be no successful challenge. Some will try of course, but it won't work.



Bring on the brain / body transplants! I quite fancy being 7ft tall when I go to a gig. 

Gassage

fretmeister said:

Bring on the brain / body transplants! I quite fancy being 7ft tall when I go to a gig. 

Would you honestly want to be as plug ugly as Chris Novaselic?

Offset

Well the boxing controversy seems to be properly kicking off now with Nicola Adams coming out with a pretty forthright public  statement.  The IOC is not looking good at the moment.

euan

But her statement is factually incorrect 

guitars4you

Another gold - Page - Trampoline - Good day so far 

Philly_Q

Well done @guitars4you for regularly getting the thread back on track. 

guitars4you

Philly_Q said:

Well done @guitars4you for regularly getting the thread back on track. 

Thanks - I thought it might be worth a try - I was also debating about saying that the gold medal winners of the rowing and trampoline are Women 

Offset

euan said:

But her statement is factually incorrect 

Indeed it is.  And although I like and respect NA, it wasn't helpful.  But the IOC have handled this badly I'm afraid.

...and yes @guitars4you - it was great to watch Bryony Page's reaction to winning her gold.  Fantastic!

UnclePsychosis

Spectacular.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o

Not sure there are enough facepalms available for this now... 

Philly_Q

UnclePsychosis said:

Spectacular.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o

Not sure there are enough facepalms available for this now... 

I wonder what brought about that volte-face?

Kurtis

Why don't they do it by ability? 

Offset

Teddy Riner.  What an utter superstar.

TeleMaster

Imagine being that poor woman. She's been approved to fight, they have the fight but the competitor can't take the beating, gives up, and then all the weekend warrior ebay biologists get it completely wrong and accuse her of being trans, being a man, none of which are true and then Lisa Nandy gets involved. What does it have to do with her anyway? And now the competitor is apologising. 

When did the facts and the truth stop being important? When did knowing that you don't know what you're talking about stop being a thing?

I really think she's been put through the ringer for no reason. I'd say she deserves a medal just for going through this ordeal. 

JezWynd

Offset said:

FFS.  Watching the the air pistol competition between Turkey and Serbia.  The BBC commentators are pronouncing Turkey as 'Turkee-ay', presumably as the Turks would (if we have any Turkish forumites, please chip in).  WTAF?  The commentators aren't Turkish nor are they broadcasting to a Turkish audience.

Why isn't he referring to Paris as 'Paree' just to be consistent?!  

Fucking nonsense.  Good old Beeb.

Perhaps they caught the American bug that has them pronounce 'Ireland' in a cod irish accent.

guitars4you

Offset said:

...and yes @guitars4you - it was great to watch Bryony Page's reaction to winning her gold.  Fantastic!

Only just seen it and yes wonderful - That is what the Olympics is about - Small sports which on their own have close to zero global/national interest - But put them in the Olympics and for 10 mins they are super stars - Yet no matter what happens next, she will always be an Olympic champion and no one can take that away from her - Wonderful