A white coffee please.

UnclePsychosis

chillidoggy said:

Sporky said:

I think they do something called an espresso which approximates an actual espresso. Other than that you're probably right.

So what language is all that shite above the counter in, then? Probably cobbled together by one of the Remain scriptwriters.

Italian. Cobbled together by Italians. 

Apart from the silly things like flavoured syrup and so on nearly everything on the menu at these places has a name that would be recognisable to Italians. That said, just because it has an authentic name doesn't mean that its authentic Italian coffee, much the same as my work canteen serves "chilli con carne" that would have most Mexicans baffled. 

RaymondLin

sev112 said:

Ok so all the coffee snobs don't like Costbucks and nextpresso But what is the actual physical reason ? Is it the equipment (which appears to be high quality on all counts and does the high pressure through beans process) or the basic coffee bean ? There ain't much you can down wrong with it, it would seem?

To answer that question one has to understand the ideal science for the best flavour of coffee.

First, the beans should be freshly roasted but not the same day, the best flavour is a few days after it has been roasted, and they are good for a few weeks at their peak.  I am not sure how old the beans in Starbucks are, they could be just right due to the volume they turn over.

Second, the pull for the best espresso should be around 25 seconds long to fill a double shot.  If you watch them, they are often way too fast, like 5 seconds, which means either the grind was too coarse, they didn't press down on the tamper hard enough or both.  The result is the machine doesn't extract the full flavours from the beans.

So what you end up with is an inconsistent cup, now and again they are good but most of the time they are below average (still better than instant).

Because of that, their filter coffee is a lot more consistent and nicer due to the nature of it being made.  It is pretty idiot proof.

So if you want a "white coffee" in Starbucks, ask for Black filter coffee, then the milk is self-serve on a separate counter which you can put in yourself to make it "white".

WezV

sev112;1121355" said:

WezV said:

They start with burnt beans. Coffee doesn't have to be roasted to death, but it does make them consistent.



It then needs more crap adding to make it palatable.



I prefer a strong brew of a gentler roast












What is a "burnt bean" when it is at home ?

Coffee beans don't taste like that naturally you know.

They need roasting, but they don't always need to be roasted untill black

ThePrettyDamned

RaymondLin;1121503" said:

sev112 said:

Ok so all the coffee snobs don't like Costbucks and nextpresso



But what is the actual physical reason ? Is it the equipment (which appears to be high quality on all counts and does the high pressure through beans process) or the basic coffee bean ? There ain't much you can down wrong with it, it would seem?





To answer that question one has to understand the ideal science for the best flavour of coffee.

First, the beans should be freshly roasted but not the same day, the best flavour is a few days after it has been roasted, and they are good for a few weeks at their peak.  I am not sure how old the beans in Starbucks are, they could be just right due to the volume they turn over.

Second, the pull for the best espresso should be around 25 seconds long to fill a double shot.  If you want them, they are often way too fast, like 5 seconds, which means either the grind was too coarse, they didn't press down on the tamper hard enough or both.  The result is the machine doesn't extract the full flavours from the beans.

So what you end up with is an inconsistent cup, now and again they are good but most of the time they are below average (still better than instant).



Because of that, their filter coffee is a lot more consistent and nicer due to the nature of it being made.  It is pretty idiot proof.

So if you want a "white coffee" in Starbucks, ask for Black filter coffee, then the milk is self-serve on a separate counter which you can put in yourself to make it "white".

This is true, though I've just had a Kenyan that only tasted good after nearly two weeks resting post roast. I disagree on tamping though - pressure is nearly irrelevant compared to evenness of the puck. So long as it holds together without cracking or channeling, the water will compact the grinds anyway. Tamp too firm an you have a problem...

Espresso is tough - seriously. Grind and extraction rate varies from bean to bean and roast to roast. A monsooned malabar needs a different grind to a Colombian or a blend.

Add roast levels... Temperature (temp surfing anyone?), pressure (profiling, or straight? Most machines don't profile), brew ratio (is 18g to 36g best for that bean or does it benefit from a shorter or longer run?), pre infusion...

Filter can be tough, too... I mean, spiral out? Dump water or pulses? Evenness of grind is important too.

I use aeropress for immersion brewing a cup, a moka pot for pseudo espresso as I can't afford the machine or suitable grinder I'd like for espresso and won't anytime soon (probably a sprung lever) and a V60 for pour over. I may get a syphon but I tried one in a coffee shop recently and compared the same bean to a clever dripper brew and the syphon was overextracted. The clever dripper is much cheaper and still made the better cup of coffee that time...

Oh god.





I'm a hipster.

lloyd

ThePrettyDamned;1121558" said:

[quote="RaymondLin;1121503"]sev112 said:

Ok so all the coffee snobs don't like Costbucks and nextpresso



But what is the actual physical reason ? Is it the equipment (which appears to be high quality on all counts and does the high pressure through beans process) or the basic coffee bean ? There ain't much you can down wrong with it, it would seem?





To answer that question one has to understand the ideal science for the best flavour of coffee.

First, the beans should be freshly roasted but not the same day, the best flavour is a few days after it has been roasted, and they are good for a few weeks at their peak.  I am not sure how old the beans in Starbucks are, they could be just right due to the volume they turn over.

Second, the pull for the best espresso should be around 25 seconds long to fill a double shot.  If you want them, they are often way too fast, like 5 seconds, which means either the grind was too coarse, they didn't press down on the tamper hard enough or both.  The result is the machine doesn't extract the full flavours from the beans.

So what you end up with is an inconsistent cup, now and again they are good but most of the time they are below average (still better than instant).



Because of that, their filter coffee is a lot more consistent and nicer due to the nature of it being made.  It is pretty idiot proof.

So if you want a "white coffee" in Starbucks, ask for Black filter coffee, then the milk is self-serve on a separate counter which you can put in yourself to make it "white".

This is true, though I've just had a Kenyan that only tasted good after nearly two weeks resting post roast. I disagree on tamping though - pressure is nearly irrelevant compared to evenness of the puck. So long as it holds together without cracking or channeling, the water will compact the grinds anyway. Tamp too firm an you have a problem...

Espresso is tough - seriously. Grind and extraction rate varies from bean to bean and roast to roast. A monsooned malabar needs a different grind to a Colombian or a blend.

Add roast levels... Temperature (temp surfing anyone?), pressure (profiling, or straight? Most machines don't profile), brew ratio (is 18g to 36g best for that bean or does it benefit from a shorter or longer run?), pre infusion...

Filter can be tough, too... I mean, spiral out? Dump water or pulses? Evenness of grind is important too.

I use aeropress for immersion brewing a cup, a moka pot for pseudo espresso as I can't afford the machine or suitable grinder I'd like for espresso and won't anytime soon (probably a sprung lever) and a V60 for pour over. I may get a syphon but I tried one in a coffee shop recently and compared the same bean to a clever dripper brew and the syphon was overextracted. The clever dripper is much cheaper and still made the better cup of coffee that time...

Oh god.





I'm a hipster. [/quote]

I like a decent espresso but god man, this is extreme!

ThePrettyDamned

lloyd;1121570" said:

[quote="ThePrettyDamned;1121558"][quote="RaymondLin;1121503"]sev112 said:

Ok so all the coffee snobs don't like Costbucks and nextpresso



But what is the actual physical reason ? Is it the equipment (which appears to be high quality on all counts and does the high pressure through beans process) or the basic coffee bean ? There ain't much you can down wrong with it, it would seem?





To answer that question one has to understand the ideal science for the best flavour of coffee.

First, the beans should be freshly roasted but not the same day, the best flavour is a few days after it has been roasted, and they are good for a few weeks at their peak.  I am not sure how old the beans in Starbucks are, they could be just right due to the volume they turn over.

Second, the pull for the best espresso should be around 25 seconds long to fill a double shot.  If you want them, they are often way too fast, like 5 seconds, which means either the grind was too coarse, they didn't press down on the tamper hard enough or both.  The result is the machine doesn't extract the full flavours from the beans.

So what you end up with is an inconsistent cup, now and again they are good but most of the time they are below average (still better than instant).



Because of that, their filter coffee is a lot more consistent and nicer due to the nature of it being made.  It is pretty idiot proof.

So if you want a "white coffee" in Starbucks, ask for Black filter coffee, then the milk is self-serve on a separate counter which you can put in yourself to make it "white".

This is true, though I've just had a Kenyan that only tasted good after nearly two weeks resting post roast. I disagree on tamping though - pressure is nearly irrelevant compared to evenness of the puck. So long as it holds together without cracking or channeling, the water will compact the grinds anyway. Tamp too firm an you have a problem...

Espresso is tough - seriously. Grind and extraction rate varies from bean to bean and roast to roast. A monsooned malabar needs a different grind to a Colombian or a blend.

Add roast levels... Temperature (temp surfing anyone?), pressure (profiling, or straight? Most machines don't profile), brew ratio (is 18g to 36g best for that bean or does it benefit from a shorter or longer run?), pre infusion...

Filter can be tough, too... I mean, spiral out? Dump water or pulses? Evenness of grind is important too.

I use aeropress for immersion brewing a cup, a moka pot for pseudo espresso as I can't afford the machine or suitable grinder I'd like for espresso and won't anytime soon (probably a sprung lever) and a V60 for pour over. I may get a syphon but I tried one in a coffee shop recently and compared the same bean to a clever dripper brew and the syphon was overextracted. The clever dripper is much cheaper and still made the better cup of coffee that time...

Oh god.





I'm a hipster. [/quote]

I like a decent espresso but god man, this is extreme![/quote]

It sounds it, but when you go to a really good coffee shop, they've done that hard work for you to get at least a decent, and consistent, shot. That's why it costs.

Starbucks costs because marketing.

Besides, we obsess over overdrive tone... Coffee is a hobby for me as much as anything.

Think I'm weird? http://coffeeforums.co.uk/forum . pop

(Yeah, I'm a member too, though mostly non participant - I let the others play with refractometers to determine concentration gradients).

RaymondLin

Well, the 25 seconds is a combination of coarseness of the grind + tamper.  If its really fine then you tamper with the same pressure with a coarser grind then it's going to choke so the tamp pressure varies from bag to bag of beans.  The first shot of a new bag is pretty much a given as a throw away for me before I get the grind right.

scrumhalf

A cafe round the corner from me offerrs "hand roasted coffee".

That's someone I won't be shaking hands with.

ThePrettyDamned

RaymondLin;1121584" said:

Well, the 25 seconds is a combination of coarseness of the grind + tamper.  If its really fine then you tamper with the same pressure with a coarser grind then it's going to choke so the tape pressure varies from bag to bag of beans.  The first shot of a new bag is pretty much a given as a throw away for me before I get the grind right.

Shouldn't choke with a coarse grind, more likely to get under extraction surely?

I've only choked machines when grinding too fine.

Tamp pressure is a matter of debate on that forum...

Ultimately, so long as the coffee tastes good, it's good! I would love to get back into espresso...

Edit: just understood what you meant, yes, you're right.

I only use a very light tamp on coffee - just make sure grinds are level and clean, then compacted enough to form a puck that holds form and won't fall if the portafilter is turned. I let the machine do the rest of the tamp for me after pre infusion.

Dominic

Yes, it is a science and quite an arcane one at that

Cork -sniffers = Bean Roasters ...........but there are huge differences let alone the pressure rates and oil extraction ratio

I can't be bothered to be too fussy about it

but how anybody can drink instant coffee is beyond me................it is simply vile

RaymondLin

Dominic said:

Yes, it is a science and quite an arcane one at that

Cork -sniffers = Bean Roasters ...........but there are huge differences let alone the pressure rates and oil extraction ratio

I can't be bothered to be too fussy about it

but how anybody can drink instant coffee is beyond me................it is simply vile

Sure, even if I get a shot at 15 seconds I will still drink it, to throw that away just because it is "under extracted" is silly.  I just adjust the grind so the next one is better but I would never throw away perfectly good coffee. 

chillidoggy

"Russ Andrews doesn't do coffee, but if he did.................."

stickyfiddle

chillidoggy said:

"Russ Andrews doesn't do coffee, but if he did.................."

Except of course there is a tangible, measurable difference between each kind of coffee, unlike anything Russ Andrews has ever done.

chillidoggy

stickyfiddle said:

chillidoggy said:

"Russ Andrews doesn't do coffee, but if he did.................."

Except of course there is a tangible, measurable difference between each kind of coffee, unlike anything Russ Andrews has ever done.

Oooh, wash your mouth out!

viz

with a frappucino!

scrumhalf

stickyfiddle said:

chillidoggy said:

"Russ Andrews doesn't do coffee, but if he did.................."

Except of course there is a tangible, measurable difference between each kind of coffee, unlike anything Russ Andrews has ever done.

I hope you're not suggesting that he has a bespoke version of civet coffee.

Sporky

I wondered, briefly, if anyone had tried cryogenically treating coffee.

Then I realised, of course someone has. And other people have strong opinions on the subject. Ah, the inferweb...

stickyfiddle

Does anyone know what kind of kettle lead I should be using with my, err, kettle?

Sporky

Kettles are not the right way to heat water for a coffee. It should be done on the hob, in a wooden pan made from old Scotish barrels. But not Scotch barrels, they will impart an distracting tanninity (tm) that can strip precious caffeine oils from the coffee.

Obviously not an induction hob though. They ionise the water through electromagnetrickery resulting in quantum diffusion that creates a dislocation of flavour.  I use cryogenically treated purified (not distilled) water that's been blessed by a badger and passed through six muslin filters, one from each of the major coffee filtering nations.

EricTheWeary

Sporky said:

Kettles are not the right way to heat water for a coffee. It should be done on the hob, in a wooden pan made from old Scotish barrels. But not Scotch barrels, they will impart an distracting tanninity (tm) that can strip precious caffeine oils from the coffee.

Obviously not an induction hob though. They ionise the water through electromagnetrickery resulting in quantum diffusion that creates a dislocation of flavour.  I use cryogenically treated purified (not distilled) water that's been blessed by a badger and passed through six muslin filters, one from each of the major coffee filtering nations.

But those Muslim fitters will be weak during Ramadan so you'll get stronger coffee after Eid Mubarak.