so ....... are we leaving or not????

Bogwhoppit

Advisory perhaps.

However, Cameron in his post referendum speech along with other major players have spoken about the peoples will and how it must now be followed - not "well this was advisory so we don't have to act".

So not only was advisory not mentioned in any detail to the public pre-referendum, they have since endorsed the peoples will post referendum. Add to that, the vast majority of voters lack of understanding regarding electoral rules and regulations and you have lit a fuse under a very large can of worms.

digitalscream

paulmapp8306 said:

Wouldnt they be better just joining the Lib Dems?  

Nah, their goose is cooked after the last couple of elections. I'm not sure they have even close to the amount of credibility and support to be any more than a bit player in a couple of regions.

Myranda

Bogwhoppit said:

Advisory perhaps.

However, Cameron in his post referendum speech along with other major players have spoken about the peoples will and how it must now be followed - not "well this was advisory so we don't have to act".

So not only was advisory not mentioned in any detail to the public pre-referendum, they have since endorsed the peoples will post referendum. Add to that, the vast majority of voters lack of understanding regarding electoral rules and regulations and you have lit a fuse under a very large can of worms.

THat's just the problem... that man in power saying it must be followed is not making anything law, and abdicating leaving it in the hands of people who haven't said they definitely absolutely will, which while not a great move politically for those saying "no" hardly prevents them from doing so.

That paragraph doesn't make sense... nevermind

Troy

I voted leave and will be mighty p!ssed off if we retract. I don't regret my vote to leave. 

This all really sounds like spoilt brats who didn't get the results they and their mate wanted, why should we have another referendum? 

What will you do/say if we did have another referendum and the vote was still to leave?

digitalscream

Troy said:

What will you do/say if we did have another referendum and the vote was still to leave?

Then it clearly would be the will of the people. Right now, I'm not remotely convinced.

kipple

digitalscream said:

kipple said:

digitalscream said:

Firstly...it wasn't a binding referendum in the first place, so there was always a good chance of it being overturned either way.

Secondly...if there was another referendum today, it's entirely possible (if not probable) that we'd get the opposite result given the number of people who seem to be regretting putting a cross in the "Leave" box (out of the 20 or so people I've spoken to over the last few days, six said that it was just a protest vote and they'd much rather stay; not exactly a big pool, but I've heard similar stories from others). Given that it was such a slim majority, it could well be that forging ahead with Article 50 would actually be against the will of the people now. It's reasonably likely that we'll never know, mind.

Lastly...there are an awful lot of precedents for ignoring or re-voting referendum results elsewhere, and democracy didn't fail in those countries.

Yes what a great Idea lets just keep having referendums until the government get the result THEY want.

So if the first Referendum wasnt binding why should the second one be binding. If I dont get the result I want in a second referendum I want a third referendum.. 

 

OK, I made the relevant bits bold so they're easier to read In my opinion, it's nothing to do with the government getting the result they want. If that's the case, then they can just ignore it anyway.

If you're trying to use a referendum to gauge the will of the people and once the very marginal results are in a significant number of people instantly pipe up and say they voted the wrong way as a protest, you can no longer be sure in any way that the referendum result represents the will of the people.

Saying, "No take-backsies" might be a little churlish for something of this magnitude, wouldn't you say?

Did you vote to remain by any chance ? you seem to have a definite bias here

And NO I would not say its churlish in fact its the complete opposite 

Given that it is this magnitude then the referendum result must stand and not be messed with based on voters having buyers remorse..

Plus what people are reported as saying is just hearsay and is of no relevance and can not be statistcally evaluated and is totally worthless

A second referendum would make a complete mockery of the first . if the first referendum is not relevant then neither is any other referendum . makes NO difference if someone voted remain or leave a second referendum is just fixing statistics models to fit a desired result 

Modulus_Amps

They have started the ball in motion, may as well run with it for as long as we can to see what actually happens, that is the US already back tracking on the back of the queue statements...

http://www.dawn.com/news/1267784/us-uk-alliance-seen-outweighing-brexit-trade-concerns

"A US-UK agreement could create leverage to get TTIP done more quickly, and it's an easier agreement to do," Sapiro said.

""That's what we worry about with Britain leaving. Britain was the strongest American partner inside the EU.""

Snap

Such a mess.

Its becoming clearer by the day that (as many alleged) the major claims used by the Leave campaign are being exposed as exaggerrations

Immigration won't actually come down
£350M a week wasn't being paid out to the EU a week, and therefore it won't be divertd back into (e.g.) the  NHS.

Its also coming clear that that Leave gang don't really know what to do, and didn't have a plan as they didn't expect to win.

What we have now appears to be a panic dither - no-one can quite believe what's happening and no-one appears to be doing anything.

IMO, its quite likely that we will see some sly machinations to either countermand the outcome of the referendum OR have a second one after much publicity work to "expose" the real implications of leaving.

There is every possibility of this happening - there are parliamentary procesess to override the referendum. If parliament has the balls for it, they could, cross party, go on the offensive with a lot of PR to convince the public that this has been a HUGE mistake and that we need to vote a second time. Hell Greece seem to have a referendum every other month.

Or, we will see a delay in invoking ARticle 50, until such a time that they are confident that the public will vote remain again.

I reckon its unlikely we will leave, wrongly or rightly, there just seems to be too much going on to fight this result. Ultimately parliament hold all the strings. The main thing a political party is concnerned about is winning the next election - if parliament can collude into a united message to ignore the referendum, the impact on each party's electability will be even, therefore the risk to each party is the same (in theory) - therefore I think it's quite conceivable that they will club together to fight it.

ICBM

Modulus_Amps said:

They have started the ball in motion, may as well run with it for as long as we can to see what actually happens, that is the US already back tracking on the back of the queue statements...

http://www.dawn.com/news/1267784/us-uk-alliance-seen-outweighing-brexit-trade-concerns

"A US-UK agreement could create leverage to get TTIP done more quickly, and it's an easier agreement to do," Sapiro said.

""That's what we worry about with Britain leaving. Britain was the strongest American partner inside the EU.""

I seem to remember repeatedly saying exactly that to Leavers who thought that TTIP was a bad thing the EU were about to sign and we needed to leave to avoid it…

We'll end up with it and they won't.

octatonic

Europe is pretty clear it seems.

No rights without obligations.

No taking something out without putting something in.

No cherry picking, no 'cake and eat it'.

digitalscream

kipple said:

Did you vote to remain by any chance ? you seem to have a definite bias here

And NO I would not say its churlish in fact its the complete opposite 

Given that it is this magnitude then the referendum result must stand and not be messed with based on voters having buyers remorse..

Plus what people are reported as saying is just hearsay and is of no relevance and can not be statistcally evaluated and is totally worthless

A second referendum would make a complete mockery of the first . if the first referendum is not relevant then neither is any other referendum . makes NO difference if someone voted remain or leave a second referendum is just fixing statistics models to fit a desired result 

As I said...there's plenty of precedent for such a marginal result being ignored in other countries.

Yes, I voted Remain, but I'd be saying exactly this if I'd voted Leave.

It's clear that there's a good chance that the result doesn't represent the will of the people, particularly now that a number of things that were labelled "scaremongering" have actually turned out to be fact. What you appear to be saying is, "I don't care if this is the will of the people or not, we won and that's that", whereas what I'm saying is that if there's even a semblance of doubt in the result for such a decision with huge (and lasting) ramifications, then the result should not be treated as a cast-iron representation of what the country wants.

paulmapp8306

Troy said:

I voted leave and will be mighty p!ssed off if we retract. I don't regret my vote to leave. 

This all really sounds like spoilt brats who didn't get the results they and their mate wanted, why should we have another referendum? 

What will you do/say if we did have another referendum and the vote was still to leave?

I voted Leave, and I actually think another referendum at this point would be sensible.  BUT it wouldnt be the same referendum, and would need clear "goalposts" before being held.  There also should bt any "campaigning" aloud  - it should be soon.

It should be along the lines fs:

1.  This referendum is binding.

2.  A 60% or above vote would be needed to overturn the "leave" result of the original referendum.

3.  The Question - should we enact Article 50 and leave the EU in line with the first referendum.

So if the split is roughly the same, we leave and its binding.  if 60% or more think we shouldnt (so the protest vote changing their minds perhaps) - thats enough of a majority to not follow the original referendum,

It might also entice those who didnt vote to register their opinion now they 

know some of the ramifications.

  

quarky

Snap said:

Its also coming clear that that Leave gang don't really know what to do, and didn't have a plan as they didn't expect to win.

What we have now appears to be a panic dither - no-one can quite believe what's happening and no-one appears to be doing anything.

The "leave" campaign are not the Government. The Government should have had a plan to deal with the result. The only way I can understand you thinking otherwise, is if you thought that the referendum as about who should run the country.

Yes, a lot of people are scared, and running around as if the sky is falling. It clearly isn't.

I think you are right though in that I don't think we will leave. We have been led too far down the integration path now and people don't want to take the medicine. Perhaps we should just say "fuck it" and adopt the Euro. At least we will all be in it together.

Yet again in the EU, the will of the people will be ignored.

Fretwired

octatonic said:

Europe is pretty clear it seems.

No rights without obligations.

No taking something out without putting something in.

No cherry picking, no 'cake and eat it'.

Fine .. no BMW's or French cheese ... when money talks, principles take a walk.

Farage on top form ... I'd never vote for him but it's great watching him wind up the overpaid eurocrats and MEPs .. watch the video.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/28/nigel-farage-shares-cosy-embrace-with-jean-claude-juncker/

digitalscream

@paulmapp8306 - wisdom, sir.

octatonic

Farage said that had of lost 52:48 that it wouldn't have been the end of it.

If he wasn't going to give up, then why should we?

Drew_TNBD

digitalscream;1129596" said:
It's clear that there's a good chance that the result doesn't represent the will of the people

I think this is true, even if you only account for the 27% of people who didn't vote. They might've all been lazy Remainers.

Fretwired

paulmapp8306 said:

Troy said:

I voted leave and will be mighty p!ssed off if we retract. I don't regret my vote to leave. 

This all really sounds like spoilt brats who didn't get the results they and their mate wanted, why should we have another referendum? 

What will you do/say if we did have another referendum and the vote was still to leave?

I voted Leave, and I actually think another referendum at this point would be sensible.  BUT it wouldnt be the same referendum, and would need clear "goalposts" before being held.  There also should bt any "campaigning" aloud  - it should be soon.

It should be along the lines fs:

1.  This referendum is binding.

2.  A 60% or above vote would be needed to overturn the "leave" result of the original referendum.

3.  The Question - should we enact Article 50 and leave the EU in line with the first referendum.

So if the split is roughly the same, we leave and its binding.  if 60% or more think we shouldnt (so the protest vote changing their minds perhaps) - thats enough of a majority to not follow the original referendum,

It might also entice those who didnt vote to register their opinion now they 

know some of the ramifications.

We can't go through another referendum .. I think things could turn really nasty and people could lose their lives.

It's up to a government to show some leadership - either get us a great deal and leave or ignore the referendum and take the consequences.

Snap

quarky said:

Snap said:

Its also coming clear that that Leave gang don't really know what to do, and didn't have a plan as they didn't expect to win.

What we have now appears to be a panic dither - no-one can quite believe what's happening and no-one appears to be doing anything.

The "leave" campaign are not the Government. The Government should have had a plan to deal with the result. The only way I can understand you thinking otherwise, is if you thought that the referendum as about who should run the country.

Yes, a lot of people are scared, and running around as if the sky is falling. It clearly isn't.

I think you are right though in that I don't think we will leave. We have been led too far down the integration path now and people don't want to take the medicine. Perhaps we should just say "fuck it" and adopt the Euro. At least we will all be in it together.

Yet again in the EU, the will of the people will be ignored.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly - thanks for that gem on who the govt are and what they do

My point on the leave campaign is related to public opinion - which is what my underlying point is. If we are being moved down a path to a second vote, my point is that the public will be manipulated and steered into a position where a remain result is a given. That is being achieved already as we see how thin the case for leave really was/is: many of the basic columns of their arguments are emerging as bluster.

octatonic

Fretwired said:

We can't go through another referendum .. I think things could turn really nasty and people could lose their lives.

It's up to a government to show some leadership - either get us a great deal and leave or ignore the referendum and take the consequences.

The referendum was a binary question.

The path out of Europe is not binary, however.